The ten commandments and being saved

[Bill the Cat]

Just what does it mean Bill to "hear His voice"

So, we are going to play this game, huh? You really need to re-read Hebrews and understand the CHANGING of the covenant, which changed the Law and the Priesthood. The Old was the shadow. The new is the eternal.

HEBREWS 3 [12]Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [13] But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14] For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; [15] While it is said, TO DAY IF YE WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

"Today", meaning the TRUE Sabbath of God. When we are made partakers of Christ, we hear Him "today", and thus we rest TODAY.

GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, AND UNTO THY SEED, I will give all these countries, and I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.

Cited in Galatians 3, and had nothing to do with obedience to the Law. It had everything to do with faith.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed [i]by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Hebrews 11:9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
Hebrews 11:10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

Honest Abe heard Gods "voice" and so he kept His commandments

But the 10 Commandments were not given yet, so that is a red herring. And the writer of Hebrews makes it clear that it was through FAITH, not obedience to a law, that Abraham was justified.

JOHN 10 [27] MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, and I know them, and they follow me: [28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Also Gods sheep shall also hear His “voice”.

Why the quotes? Jesus was meaning His LITERAL voice.

John 5:25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

DEUT. 27 [8] And thou shalt write upon the stones all the words of this law very plainly. [9] And Moses and the priests the Levites spake unto all Israel, saying, Take heed, and hearken, O Israel; this day thou art become the people of the Lord thy God . [10] Thou shalt therefore OBEY THE VOICE of the Lord thy God, and DO HIS COMMANDMENTS and his statutes, which I command thee this day.

That was His voice to the Jews in the OLD Covenant. But we have a NEW covenant.

Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

DEUT. 4 [12] And the Lord spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard THE VOICE of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. [13] And he declared unto you his covenant, which HE COMMANDED YOU TO PERFORM, EVEN TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

It is truly Gods 10 commandments. The “voice” we are to hear

Nope. That was the voice for that time. God changed the covenant, the priesthood, and the Law, because the Law could make NOTHING perfect.

Heb 7:19 for the Law made nothing perfect

Heb 7:28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

[Christianbookworm]

Though he won't listen... still sounds like a crazy seventh day adventist.

[Cow Poke]

Just what does it mean Bill to "hear His voice"

It is becoming obvious that you don't know.

[Bill the Cat]

Hey again Bill the Cat. You speak of a new rest in Jesus. But verse 9 says there "remains" a sabbath rest. How can a new rest in Jesus remain if its new?

The Greek word implies that it is remaining in place and continuing.

Verse 10

HEBREWS 4 [10] For HE THAT IS ENTERED INTO HIS REST, he also hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS. [11] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Verse 10@11 says we are to enter the same rest as God did

Correct. Our labors are now over, just like God's. He did not pick back up on the 8th day. He rested. We are in the 7th day, the day of rest. Today. And every day. We rest in Him EVERY DAY.

Matthew 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

HEBREWS 4 [4] For he spake in a certain place of THE SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY from all his works

God rested the 7th day.

And today is OUR 7th day. We rest with Him.

[IwreckNsow]

But the 10 Commandments were not given yet, so that is a red herring. And the writer of Hebrews makes it clear that it was through FAITH, not obedience to a law, that Abraham was justified.

As you can see they were givin to Abe

GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, AND UNTO THY SEED, I will give all these countries, and I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.

Whats do the scriptures say about faith?

GALATIANS 3[10] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[11] But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[12] And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.[13] CHRIST HATH REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; THAT WE MIGHT RECEIVE THE PROMISE OF THE SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH.

Christ did not come to destroy the law but came to redeem us from the curse of the law that we might recieve the promise of the spirit through FAITH. BUT...

GALATIANS 3 [23] But BEFORE FAITH CAME, WE WERE KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] WHEREFORE THE LAW WAS OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This scripture says what it says. Before faith came to each and everyone of us, we are under the law (10 commandments). Then the scripture goes on to say the same thing again (in case you missed it the 1st time). We are under the law (our schoolmaster) UNTIL we are justified by faith. Faith is not something that you mysteriously attain attain at birth. So, according to this scripture you are kept under the law of the 10 commandments (the schoolmaster) until you are justified by faith in Christ. No shortcuts. Then there is no condemnation. After we have been brought to faith in Christ, do we then make void the law or are we to still be keeping Gods law?

ROMANS 3 [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

Just because we have attained faith through the Word are we now to “do away” with Gods 10 commandments? GOD FORBID!

REV. 14 [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God, and THE FAITH OF JESUS.

FAITH AND THE COMMANDMENTS

[Cow Poke]

The Greek word implies that it is remaining in place and continuing.

I'm leaving this in your capable paws, Bill... be gentle!



(I typed Gentile, by accident! )

[IwreckNsow]

Matthew 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Scripture below says He will give you rest

MATTHEW 11 [27] All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. [28] Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. [30] For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

In order to find out what rest Jesus is speaking of simply read the next verse. Keep in mind when this was written it was one continual writing. No chapters and verses.

MATTHEW 12 [1] At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. [2] But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

MATTHEW 12 [10] And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. [11] And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? [12] How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

The Jews added over a hundred laws to the original sabbath commandment which made the 4th commandment more of a burden than a blessing. Jesus sets them straight in Matthew 12 on a couple of these added laws to His 4th commandment.

MATTHEW 23 [1] Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, [2] Saying, THE SCRIBES AND THE PHARISEES sit in Moses' seat: [3] All therefore WHATSOEVER THEY BID YOU OBSERVE, THAT OBSERVE AND DO; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. [4] For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Jesus tells us to do what scribes and pharisees say to do. You can bet one of the things they said we are to observe is Gods sabbath day.

[mikewhitney]

GALATIANS 3 [23] But BEFORE FAITH CAME, WE WERE KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] WHEREFORE THE LAW WAS OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This scripture says what it says. Before faith came to each and everyone of us, we are under the law (10 commandments). Then the scripture goes on to say the same thing again (in case you missed it the 1st time). We are under the law (our schoolmaster) UNTIL we are justified by faith. Faith is not something that you mysteriously attain attain at birth. So, according to this scripture you are kept under the law of the 10 commandments (the schoolmaster) until you are justified by faith in Christ. No shortcuts. Then there is no condemnation. After we have been brought to faith in Christ, do we then make void the law or are we to still be keeping Gods law?

Do you not see that Paul was rebuking the Galatians for becoming interested in (and on the verge of) practicing the laws, especially circumcision?

Do you not see that faith came through Christ and hence there no longer was need of a schoolmaster? I know the passage is a bit odd in that Paul has spoken to gentiles as if they grew up in a Jewish environment -- but Paul was trying to stop these gentiles from taking on the former aspects of the law, since the Galatians had already come to live by faith. As such you are missing the context of Paul's discussion when you try to say "we are under the law UNTIL we are justified by faith." The Galatians were never under the law -- and now were being admonished not to place themselves under it.

Do you not realize that 'condemnation' was coming essentially to those under the law? As such if there was no condemnation, it is because the law did not apply to them.

Did you not realize that the benefits through the promise were antithetical to expecting benefits through the law?

It would behoove you to understand a single letter, such as Galatians, before you seek to make dramatic changes from conventional Christian doctrine.

[Paula]

While I think we should all strive for greater spiritual perfection, ultimately no one can keep even one of the ten commandments let alone all ten of them. Because to keep a commandment means to keep it fully. It is a feat that is beyond our humanity, but it is not beyond Jesus. That is what Christian faith is--trusting in Jesus for your salvation. Once we die we'll experience what sinless humanity is in the final resurrection. But until we die we are going to struggle with sin. Even Paul, who lived an exemplary life, wasn't immune to this, as he discussed in Romans 7 regarding the war between the flesh and the spirit.

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. (Romans 7:18-19)

[Cow Poke]

While I think we should all strive for greater spiritual perfection, ultimately no one can keep even one of the ten commandments let alone all ten of them. Because to keep a commandment means to keep it fully. It is a feat that is beyond our humanity, but it is not beyond Jesus. That is what Christian faith is--trusting in Jesus for your salvation. Once we die we'll experience what sinless humanity is in the final resurrection. But until we die we are going to struggle with sin. Even Paul, who lived an exemplary life, wasn't immune to this, as he discussed in Romans 7 regarding the war between the flesh and the spirit.

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. (Romans 7:18-19)

Yeah.

[Christianbookworm]

While I think we should all strive for greater spiritual perfection, ultimately no one can keep even one of the ten commandments let alone all ten of them. Because to keep a commandment means to keep it fully. It is a feat that is beyond our humanity, but it is not beyond Jesus. That is what Christian faith is--trusting in Jesus for your salvation. Once we die we'll experience what sinless humanity is in the final resurrection. But until we die we are going to struggle with sin. Even Paul, who lived an exemplary life, wasn't immune to this, as he discussed in Romans 7 regarding the war between the flesh and the spirit.

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. (Romans 7:18-19)

The calcium carbonate sphere may go to waste with this guy.

[IwreckNsow]

It would behoove you to understand a single letter, such as Galatians, before you seek to make dramatic changes from conventional Christian doctrine.

So just what is Galatians talkin about? The book of Galatians is a book containing 6 very short chapters. In these 6 chapters circumcision is mentioned 16 times. The commandments are not mentioned but once {the schoolmaster}. Yet, those people that wish to do away with GODS commandments use scriptures from Galatians to try and do so. The law of circumcism is one of the carnal ordinances of the law that were nailed to the cross. Those that wish to do away with Gods 10 commandments will also try and tell you that the ordinances and the ten commandments are simply parts of the law and are not separate from one another. In saying that they will point to a scripture thats speaking of circumcision and then apply that scripture to Gods 10 commandments. This is done to extreme in the book of Galatians. The scripture below separates the law, the commandments and the ordinances

2 KINGS 17 [36] But the LORD, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power and a stretched out arm, him shall ye fear, and him shall ye worship, and to him shall ye do sacrifice.[37] AND the statutes, AND the ordinances, AND the law, AND the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.

AND means AND

1 COR. 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And although the law of circumcision was nailed to the cross, Gods law (the 10 commandments) are to be kept.

[mikewhitney]

The book of Galatians was a corrective action against those in Galatia who were being convinced by a so-called gospel that said that, in addition to following Christ, they must also assume the laws of the Jews, i.e. those laws, ordinances, statutes and commandments given to those coming out of Egypt (see 2King 17:36-37).

Your proposal is going against the very heart of what Paul was speaking against.

Now are you trying to say that when Paul speaks of 'commandments' he means the 10 commandments? How do you find support for this in the words of Jesus or of Paul?

[IwreckNsow]

Hebrews 4 says TODAY is the Sabbath rest for Christians. That means EVERY DAY we rest in Him. We no longer serve the shadow of once a week rest.

[mikewhitney]

Regarding your other statement

1 COR. 7 [19] Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And although the law of circumcision was nailed to the cross, Gods law (the 10 commandments) are to be kept.

I haven't made a study on 1Cor. But I would suggest that the discussion in chapter 7 wasn't about the role of the 10 commandments within a Christian life. It seems merely that Paul was repeating a common Christian point which, in different words, was that circumcision did not help since those who were circumcised were not doing the other commandments of God.

Your quote of 1Cor 7 does not seem to add any strength to an argument saying that the 10 commandments are emphasized by Paul.

This is a bit beyond the issues of the current discussion but ...

I think some people have sort of the fear that Christians will seek anarchy and seek to do everything evil just because the commandments, laws, and statutes, as given to the Jews, were not also given to the gentiles. We indeed found the Corinthians acting like this. Yet Paul's admonishment wasn't to revert to Jewish laws but rather was to address their own common experience that such behavior was bad, even in their own cultural perspective. Indeed Christians can act badly -- but how does that affect salvation? If we revert to the commandments, laws, and statutes (haha. I'm not sure what distinctions are presented in scripture among these words), how does the accusations of the law make anyone any better?