February 1st 2005, 02:44 PM #16
Re: Social Security Reform and the Dow Jones
"It'd be even better if I had them in my possession to give to somebody else if I so chose."
It would be better too if we could not pay car insurance, drive safely, not cause accidents and use the money to pay for the kids' college tuition. Do you agree? SS is insurance. Lots of people don't think they need it...until they do.
"Then why does the average person pay into the system?"
In case, for whatever reason, he ceases to be the average person and becomes a person who finds himself disabled, caring for a needy spouse, the victim of fraud, otherwise loses his savings. This way, he and his family don't have to die in the street. OTOH, you seem to be saying that stray dogs need to eat, so I don't know if this argument appeals to you.
"And that person would have done far better by investing less money in the stock market than he's getting from "US Savings Bonds" that he does not keep in his possession."
Maybe. It depends on how much time he had to work and save, and what percentage of his paycheck he managed to earn and save, etc.
"How do you justify taking that much money out of people's paychecks to redistribute to the small number of people..."
First of all, it's not THAT small a number of people! That's the whole problem! And the smaller number it is, the less it would cost, which is why it should be means-tested! (Thanks for making my argument for me.)
And, compared to state/local taxes, it's not that much money out of the paycheck. You can give the same pseudo anti-government claptrap about any number of state-mandated payments: state taxes paying for public schools, automobile insurance, etc. We live in a society. Look it up. You're nasically telling everybody that your a sociopath.
"...who never made enough money to save, particularly when taking out that amount of money hinders that person's ability to wisely see to his own retirement?"
Your assumption that people who need SS are simply lazy or stupid is evil. Do you realize that, as you get older, it becomes harder to earn money, save money, track money, maintain your investments? And it also beomes more likely that you will be the victim of an unpredicted catastrophe. Law of averages. And many people never earn enough to save.
Your assumption that everyone who earns any money is wise is...hilarious! Wise (and lucky) people can save plenty above and beyond the pittance they contribute to SS. What about investors who are not wise? What about people who are not wise enough to save any money, like contractors who spent all their money on health insurance, strawberry pickers who spend their money feeding their families? What do we do with them when they show up at our doors with their hat out? Kill them? Who cleans it up. Most of your ideas are NOT evil. But you micst think them through to their logical conclusions.
"...the result is that more people are reliant on SS..."
So, because of SS, people like Bill Gates don't bother to save money? They waste it by giving it all away? This is delusional. Right wing propaganda mill stuff again. The era of highest economic productivity in the US coincided with one of the highest marginal tax brackets ever."A Noble Spirit Embiggens the Smallest Man."
February 1st 2005, 09:23 PM #17
Re: Social Security Reform and the Dow JonesOriginally posted by Zeluvia
Of course it was a system for wealth redistribution.
Historically up to 90% of the median wage was the tax base. We are currently only taxing up to 85% of the median wage.
However, the SSI piece is slightly different since it covers disabled workers and orphans. This clearly isn't an "earned" insurance plan, but an insurance plan nonetheless.
Compared with Medicare, Medicaid, and welfare, Social Security as an insurance plan makes quite a bit of rational sense. Too bad we had that pesky baby boom.Capt. Ochre
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February 4th 2005, 01:00 PM #18
Re: Social Security Reform and the Dow Jones
Social Security is a government transfer program, no more no less. By dint of its monopoly on the "legal" use of force, the federal government coercively collects taxes from some people (employed workers) and gives the money to others (generally retired and disabled workers). For the recipients it is stealing, plain and simple. Government agents do the actual dirty work, but the principals of those agents who are equally responsible are the recipient-beneficiaries of Social Security. If it was a fair-valued retirement program it would not require government enforcement in order to implement it. People would buy into it voluntarily. But it isn't. You pay or go to jail, the government tells you. Nor is it insurance, as it was originally sold to be. The executives of any insurance company who operated an insurance scheme (scam) identical to Social Security would be thrown in prison for fraud. Those who participate in Social Security are either thieves or dupes, no two ways about it. There is, however, a way out of it. Anyone interested in finding out how to extricate themselves should consult the following url: http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/spartacus.htm
February 4th 2005, 01:02 PM #19
Re: Social Security Reform and the Dow Jones
Reflections on Financial Security and Anxious(Philippians 4:6) People
By John M. Whalen
Being in the financial services industry for 20 years, I can "relate" to the following:
A lesson from history
In 1923, who was:
1. President of the largest steel company?
2. President of the largest gas company?
3. President of the New York Stock Exchange?
4. Greatest wheat speculator?
5. President of the Bank of International Settlement?
6. Wheat Bear of Wall Street?
These men were considered some of the world's most successful of their day. Now, 82 years later, the history book asks us, if we know what ultimately became of them. The answer:
1. The president of the largest steel company, Charles Schwab, died a pauper.
2. The president of the largest gas company, Edward Hopson, went insane.
3. The president of the NYSE, Richard Whitney, was released from prison to die at home.
4. The greatest wheat speculator, Arthur Cooger, died abroad, penniless.
5. The president of the Bank of International Settlement, shot himself.
6. The Great Bear of Wall Street, Cosabee Livermore, also committed suicide.
[Presbyterian sermon, 2003]
In 1923 at the Edgewater Beach Hotel in Chicago, Illinois, eight of the most powerful and wealthy men in the world gathered together for a meeting. These eight, if they combined their resources and assets, controlled more money than the U.S. Treasury. In that group we find such men as Charles Schwab, the president of a steel company. Richard Whitney was the president of the New York Stock Exchange. Arthur Cutton was a wheat speculator. Albert Fall was a presidential cabinet member, personally a very wealthy man. Jesse Livermore was the greatest bear on Wall Street in his generation. Leon Fraser was the president of the International Bank of Settlements. And Ivan Krueger headed the largest monopoly in the world. Quite an impressive and ambitious group of people!
Let's look at the same group of men later in life. Charles Schwab died penniless. Richard Whitney spent the rest of his life serving a sentence in Sing Sing Prison. Arthur Cutton became insolvent. Albert Fall was pardoned from a federal prison so he might die at home. Leon Fraser committed suicide. Jesse Livermore committed suicide. Ivan Krueger also committed suicide. Seven of these eight ambitious money-magnates lived lives that ended in disaster before they passed on from this life. Again I ask, are you chasing the wrong dream?
"For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?' Mt. 16:26
"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." Col. 3:1-4
"For the wages of sin is death...." Romans 6:23
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment...." Hebrews 9:27
"...if riches increase, set not your heart upon them." Psalms 62:10
"He that trusteth in his riches shall fall..." Proverbs 11:28
The Apostle Paul, who had everything going his way, made a startling and abrupt turn around at the prompting of God, and later declared, “... and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ.... ” (Philippians 3:8).
Having a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ is the key to real happiness and success in life, and only his resurrected life within a man can fulfill him. No amount of material success can satisfy man's innermost being, for "...the eyes of man are never satisfied...."(Proverbs 27:20). I personally have learned not to "take too seriously" rich people-just as believers do, they face certain physical death. However, unlike those who have been redeemed by the completed work of the Lord Jesus Christ 2000 years ago through his death, burial, and resurrection(1 Corinthians 15:1-4), those who have not trusted this completed work face certain spiritual death, which is eternal separation from a holy and righteous LORD God.
In contrast, believers, solely by the grace of God, have a pretty solid retirement plan!:
"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." Romans 8:7
"Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." Galatians 4:7
"Can't get much richer than that"!
Are we believers in Christ looking forward to retirement, or the rapture/resurrection? I would ask that we "...think on these things...."(Philippians 4:8), and that God help all of us day- by- day to "get our priorities in line"-bringing glory to God by seeking and setting our affection on those things which are above, and not on things on the earth.
Believers should be encouraged by the fact(and not "feelings") that the LORD God is more committed to you than you will ever be to Him.
In and with Christ,
John M. Whalen
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