Jesus is Returning Sooner than You Think!!

[Slayer-2004]

You interpret the bible as bad as the jews and muslims do.

Yes . I am sure your interpretation of the bible is the True interpretation(tm) of the True god(tm) as taught by your True church(tm) .

[MichaelCadry]

Dear Slayer 2000,

Thanks for your refreshing insight as to what I'm saying. You know the truth and you will go to heaven for it, God Willing. I mean, it talks about the latter days and end times so much in the Bible and that certainly isn't 70 AD. I'd rather believe Jesus will return soon to a sinless earth than believe that 70 A.D. stuff. It does say in the Bible, and the earth shall make itself white.

Please feel free, if not impelled, to chat here again. I need help. I don't know why some of those on this chat keep thinking 70 A.D. is when Jesus came.

May God Shine Light in Your Heart and Mind Always,

MichaelCadry

[Hidden Manna]

Dear Slayer 2000,

Thanks for your refreshing insight as to what I'm saying. You know the truth and you will go to heaven for it, God Willing. I mean, it talks about the latter days and end times so much in the Bible and that certainly isn't 70 AD. I'd rather believe Jesus will return soon to a sinless earth than believe that 70 A.D. stuff. It does say in the Bible, and the earth shall make itself white.

Please feel free, if not impelled, to chat here again. I need help. I don't know why some of those on this chat keep thinking 70 A.D. is when Jesus came.

May God Shine Light in Your Heart and Mind Always,

MichaelCadry

Second Appearing

When we look at the pattern of the Old Covenant system concerning the Priesthood service in the tabernacle of Moses, it becomes clear how Jesus would have fulfilled all things during the time of that Generation.

The high priest did not have to wait 2000 years to come out of the Holy of Holies on the Day of Judgment “Atonement”. If he did not come out within a short period of time there would not have been any salvation for Israel, and the High Priest would have been struck dead.

During that time of waiting for Jesus to appear the second time the early church was saved by faith. They looked forward to their salvation even though they were saved by faith through grace, but their faith was in something still hoped for “second appearing”.


Hebrews 9:28 is generally one of the first verses offered as proof there is to be a yet future return of Jesus. Let us notice a few things about the text.

The inspired writer says in verse 26 Jesus had appeared “once” to put away sin by sacrificing himself. The Greek word translated once is “hapax” and normally means “once for all time,” see Jude 3, I Peter 3:18. The writer then says Jesus “shall appear the second time unto salvation,” vs. 28.

In Luke 21 Jesus spoke of Jerusalem’s coming destruction: “then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory” vs. 27. He said “when these things come to pass then look up and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh” vs. 28. In verse 32 he said it would be in that generation.
The word “redemption” used here is the identical word used in Romans 3:24; 8:23; I Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 1:7,14, etc. to speak of the redemption of salvation.

With these few facts before us let us draw a conclusion.
One complete salvation DID NOT come at the cross according to the Apostles. And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand.
(Romans 13:11-12). who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 5)
These statement were made some years after the cross. And according to Peter their complete salvation was ready to be revealed in the last time of the old covenant.

Salvation was ratified or confirmed through His Cross [not at the Cross], and consummated in His Parousia. Think about it - if salvation was all in all secured at or on the Cross, then they had no need to further look for its completion.

Christ’s Coming in AD70 completed it. Again, salvation came through or via the Cross of Calvary, the Victory of the Cross had an out working to completion in that generation. This is NOT saying that there was some inherent deficiency in the Cross, NO, it is saying the process of salvation started and finished with the Coming of God in Christ - His First and Second comings being the book-ends of Salvation - both encapsulating the Cross.
Hebrews 9:28 says Jesus would appear a second time, not many times, unto salvation. Jesus said he was going to return at the destruction of Jerusalem and this would be the redemption [salvation] of his Body. (Luke 21:20-28) He said it would be in that generation. (Luke 21:23) Therefore Jesus’ return in the destruction of Jerusalem, for the purpose of redemption, is the return of Hebrews 9:28.

The force of the word “second” as used here is the same as “once;” Christ would not appear again and again. When did our High Priest come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people? This question seems to be ignored by many Christians today. It is of vital importance, however, because unless our High Priest appears out side of Holy of Holies who can be saved? The Bible explains and interprets itself.

The example is set in the Old Testament. Every year on the Day of Atonement the high priest would enter in to the Presence behind the veil in the Holiest of all. “Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.” (Leviticus 23:27,28)

The High Priest must come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people so they know the blood of the sacrifice atoned for their sins. If the High Priest does not appear the people have no assurance of salvation. No appearance, no forgiveness.
Since Christ’s coming in 70 was the coming for redemption, and since he was to return only once for salvation per Hebrews 9:28, then Christ’s return in 70 was the final coming of Christ.
This conclusion is corroborated in Hebrews 10:33-39. The writer addresses Christ’s coming in judgment and salvation: “For yet in a very little while, the Coming One will come and he will not delay.” [Tragically, most of God’s people insist he HAS DELAYED! which makes him a false prophet

The Bible has a standard of determining the validity of a prophet! It is Jehovah himself that gave the criteria for determining whether a prophet was true or false; if a prophet’s prediction did not come true he was a false prophet, Deuteronomy 18:15ff. If God does not keep the WHEN part of his promises, he has not kept his promise!

In the margin of your Bible, beside Hebrews 9:28, write Luke 21:28 and Hebrews 10:33-39. These verses give divine commentary on Hebrews 9:28.

Upon what basis can anyone postulate a future coming of Christ? He promised to come [once] again for salvation. He said when it would be; and he kept his word. It is something to ponder.


Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

Verse 11 says, “...shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.” How exactly did Christ “go into heaven?” Verse 9 says, “...a cloud received him out of their sight.”

Now compare these.
Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 26:64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Isa 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

God coming with clouds of glory is a recurring theme throughout Scripture.

[Vivian]

2 Peter 3

1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

[Hidden Manna]

2 Peter 3

1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

The problems with the traditional view of the literal “heavens and earth” being destroyed, buy literal fire, if the literal “heavens and earth” were NOT destroyed by water.
The apostle Peter makes a distribution of the world into heaven and earth, and saith they were destroyed with water, and perished. (2 Peter 3:5-6)

We know that neither the fabric nor substance of the one or other was literally destroyed, but only the men that liveth on the earth was destroyed. The apostle goes on to tells us in (verse 7) of the heaven and earth then, were ready to be destroyed by Fire.

If that heaven and earth that was destroyed by water were the inhabitants of the world, were does Peter say he was changing context and shifts gears in verse 7 to a literal physical world?

It is certain that the apostle Peter intends by the world, with its heaven, and earth (verses. 5, 6), which was destroyed; is the same kind, he intends by the heavens and the earth that were to be consumed and destroyed by fire in (verse. 7); It is certain that by the flood, the world, or the fabric of heaven and earth, was not literally destroyed, but only the inhabitants of the world; and therefore the destruction intimated to succeed by fire is not of the substance of the literal heavens and the earth, but the inhabitants of the world.

Jesus also said: I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? (Luke 12:49) Paul goes on to say that God would bring a righteous judgment on the Jews in his day, who were troubling the saints. This would happen when Jesus was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(2 Thessalonians 1:1-8) John speaking of this very same event had this to say. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:9) Where was this beloved city were fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them all?

The beloved city of the Jews called Jerusalem. The writer of Hebrews said: For our God (is) a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29)

The time of this creation of the heaven and earth that Peter tells us about are mentioned in Isaiah 51:16. Planting the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth, was performed by God when He divided the sea (ver. 15) and gave the law (ver. 16), and said to Zion, Thou art my people; that is, when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a church and state; then He planted the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth: that is, brought forth order, and government.

Hebrews 12 speaks of the passing of this heaven and earth, established at Sinai, and the deliverance of the unshakable kingdom of God, the church, 12:21-28. Peter tells them, that after the destruction of this same ‘heaven and earth’ that he speaks of (verse 7), “ We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,’ etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? Where may we find it? We find it in Isaiah 65:17-19.

“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, and her people a joy will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.

God brought the flood because mankind was evil “every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” God brought the flood because of SIN. But in Genesis 8:21 God looked down through time; knowing “the imagination of man’s heart is evil from youth” God vowed to never again destroy every living creature. God destroyed the world by the flood because the world was wicked. But God knew that man would not change therefore he vowed to never again destroy the world! Psalms 78; Psalms 96:10; Psalms 119:89-90; Ecclesiastes 1:4; Isaiah 45:17; Now the New Testament unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus (throughout all ages, world without end Amen). (Ephesians 3:21 JKV)

Question
We know that neither the fabric nor substance of the one or other was literally destroyed, but only the men that liveth on the earth was destroyed. The apostle goes on to tells us in (verse 7) of the heaven and earth then, were ready to be destroyed by Fire.
(1) If the heaven and earth that was destroyed by water were NOT literally destroyed but the inhabitants of the world, were does Peter say he was changing context and shifts gears in verse 7 to mean the literal physical world?

Paul in his letter to the church of Thessalonians said God would bring a righteous judgment on the Jews in his day, who were troubling the saints. Which we say God did on Judgment day in 70 A.D.

(2) Were does Paul say this righteous judgment on the Jews of his day who were troubling the saints could happen thousands of years away from his days? My Bible says. Paul was looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ in his day (Titus 2:13)

[InChristAlways]

13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Hidden Manna

Jesus also said: I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? (Luke 12:49) Paul goes on to say that God would bring a righteous judgment on the Jews in his day, who were troubling the saints. This would happen when Jesus was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The problems with the traditional view of the literal “heavens and earth” being destroyed, buy literal fire, if the literal “heavens and earth” were NOT destroyed by water.
The apostle Peter makes a distribution of the world into heaven and earth, and saith they were destroyed with water, and perished. (2 Peter 3:5-6)

We know that neither the fabric nor substance of the one or other was literally destroyed, but only the men that liveth on the earth was destroyed. The apostle goes on to tells us in (verse 7) of the heaven and earth then, were ready to be destroyed by Fire.Hebrews 12 speaks of the passing of this heaven and earth, established at Sinai, and the deliverance of the unshakable kingdom of God, the church, 12:21-28. Peter tells them, that after the destruction of this same ‘heaven and earth’ that he speaks of (verse 7), “ We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,’ etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? Where may we find it? We find it in Isaiah 65:17-19.

HM. Of course you are correct. I suppose that is why Jesus said for "those that have Ears let him hear".

Vivian. So are we who believe unto Jesus Christ of the NC heaven and earth? Did not God remove the OC Temple in the first century as prophecied in the OT and NT and Revelation? I would hope so, or else Jesus and Paul were False Prophets and Daniel's people were not delivered as promised in Daniel 12 and Zech 14.

Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love [is] the fulfillment of the law. 11 And [do] this, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation [is] nearer than when we [first] believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.

Hebrew 12:27 Now this, "Yet once more," indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.

[Vivian]

A question I ponder, hidden manna and inchristalways, is if Christ has returned and made all things new and the new heaven and new earth await believers, then what is the problem? Why do you insist on pounding this fact into believers, who will enter the glorious world awaiting them upon their physical death?

Does it matter what they think as long as they believe in their Savior? Or must they believe as you claim?



vivian

[InChristAlways]

Xavier in another thread:

Depends what you mean by obsolete... Preterists (like DDW and myself) believe that large portions of Revelation were fulfilled in the Jewish Wars up to and including the Destruction of Temple. http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52820

A question I ponder, hidden manna and inchristalways, is if Christ has returned and made all things new and the new heaven and new earth await believers, then what is the problem? Why do you insist on pounding this fact into believers, who will enter the glorious world awaiting them upon their physical death?

Does it matter what they think as long as they believe in their Savior? Or must they believe as you claim?


vivian

Hi Vivian. The problem is the reliability and Truthfullness and credibility of Scripture and not just believers but unbelievers.
I have been on jewish forums where christians have actually abandoned Christ as they feel the real messiah is the one the jews are expecting!

Another words, I talk with jews, muslims, atheists and others and one point that is continually brought up is that Christ did not fulfill the scriptures in His generation, which is what I believe revelation is, that fulfillment.

Dani 11:45 And He shall pitch His palatial tents between the Sea and the glorious Holy Mountain; yet He shall come to His End, with none to help Him.

Daniel 12:1 And At That Time shall Michael Stand Up, the Great Prince who standeth for the Children of thy People; and there shall be a Time of Trouble, such as never was since there Was A Nation even to That Same Time; and at That Time thy People shall be Delivered, every one that shall be found Written in the Book.

I believe in Christ, and the devineness and non falseness of the Whole Bible, but unfortunately, there are sites up that pose serious challanges to the bible itself, these being 2 of them.
Why not take the challenge and refute these people as I am trying to do. Does it matter as far as our salvation in Christ, NO! But it does matter in finding out if Jesus did indeed fulfill the prohecies He spoke of to the jews and Daniel's people in that century. Blessings
http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm
We have seen that Paul's picture of God's sovereignty doesn't exist in the Scriptures. We might call this the DNA evidence against him (Doctrine Not Accurate). It is an important part of the case against him. But it is by no means all the evidence there is against his supposed authority. There is more than enough evidence to suggest that he was not even a true apostle of Yahshua let alone the greatest apostle who ever lived as he is so often eulogized.

There are a number of historical facts, quotations from Paul, and quotations from Yahshua recorded in the New Testament that leave us with some quite compelling evidence against his apostleship being recognized in heaven.

There are several interesting facts surrounding this case that should be noted and kept in mind. They are:

1.His apostleship was unrecognized by others.


http://www.awitness.org/lostmess/daniel.html

No examination of false prophecy in the Bible would be complete without taking a brief tour through the doctrinal contradictions and obviously false prophecies of the book of Daniel. Anyone who reads Daniel's prophecies cannot help but experience the jarring dissonance and the confusing sense that comes from being led down a garden path and then abruptly dropped to the ground by the obviously unfulfilled and false nature of the prophecies the book relates.

[Hidden Manna]

A question I ponder, hidden manna and inchristalways, is if Christ has returned and made all things new and the new heaven and new earth await believers, then what is the problem? Why do you insist on pounding this fact into believers, who will enter the glorious world awaiting them upon their physical death?

Does it matter what they think as long as they believe in their Savior? Or must they believe as you claim?



vivian

Hi Vivian,

The point would be to assure that we are speaking the word in truth and love about who Jesus is and what He has done. To say otherwise makes Him out to be a liar and the makes the believers look like they are hyper futurist that are going to someday live in a fantasy world where they will fly around with physical bodies that defy the laws of gravity and to able to walk though walks in flesh and bone.

Jesus said very clearly that the Kingdom comes without observation but the futuristic view denies that by says that a 1,500x 1,500 miles cube city will fall down from the sky and by called the New Jerusalem.

The main point is by proclaiming the truth about what happened in AD 70 will prove that we know Him and that He now indwells us "His temple" making our salvation complete. Another good reason is because the old temple was destroyed make way for God to tabernacle with us instead of the OC system.

Problems with the futurist views of the second coming and salvation.

Sometimes Christians seem to forget, that when it comes to the Bible we are reading someone else’s mail. The Epistles, are just that, letters. ... The letters of the New Testament were not written to us. Consider what the letters say, such as; (To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. Romans 1:7), (To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus. 1 Corinthians 1:2), (To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia. 2 Corinthians 1:2 (To the church of Galatia. Galatians 1:2), (To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 1:1), (To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons. Philippians 1:1), (To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse. Colossians 1:2), ( To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 1:1)

(To Timothy, a true son in the faith Timothy. 1:2) (To Titus, a true son in our common faith. Titus 1:4) (To Philemon our beloved and fellow laborer Philemon 1:1), (To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad James 1:1) (To the seven churches of Asia. 1 Peter 1:1) and the list goes on. These were letters written to first century people and first century churches about first century situations and events. God has preserved these letters for us today for our learning, instruction, and comfort but they were not written to us. They were written to first century people.
End quote;

How true a statement.
We are in effect reading someone else’s mail. When we read these letters we must understand them as they were written. When the writer told the readers that these events would happen ‘soon’, he was talking about events that were about to happen at that time in the first century. We have absolutely no problem understanding this principle when reading the Old Testament, why so much problem understanding it in the New Testament?

Secondly, and just as important, we must remember that the New Testament was written during what has been called the “transition period,” or as I have come to call it, the “new exodus” (See I Corinthians 10: 1-11 ). During this new exodus, the people of God did not have His Word written on stone tablets like Old Covenant Israel. Therefore, God gave the maturing “man” a group of men (the Apostles) to guide them to the promised rest, i.e., the completed New Covenant Age of Christ.

This is what scholarship calls “the already but not yet” of the New Testament, meaning that there were parts of salvation already being “tasted,” but the consummation was yet to come (cf Ephesians 2:8 with Romans 13:11). That salvation was predicted, foreshadowed, and proclaimed in the Old Testament. It was a salvation that would be fulfilled and realized fully consummated at His Presence in the end of the old-covenant age in A.D. 70. The cross was the beginning of salvation not the full consummation of salvation.

(Hebrews 9:28)
Salvation didn’t come at the cross. It didn’t come at Pentecost. It didn’t come at the ascension. According to the pattern of the Old Testament, forgiveness of sins came when the high priest came out from the Presence behind the veil. Jesus, representing us, was in the Presence of God at the time of the writing of Hebrews. All of that generation knew it would take the return of Jesus to complete the work of atonement. Thus they spoke of this redemptive work as a hope. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.(1Peter 1:9) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: (1Peter 1:10)

Salvation i.e., “deliverance” was inaugurated in the ministry of Jesus. It was ratified or confirmed through His Cross [not at the Cross], and consummated in His Parousia. Think about it - if salvation was all in all secured at or on the Cross, then what need was there further - do you follow? And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation is nearer than when we believed . (Roman 13:11)

The Cross was the linch-pin, the central part in securing our salvation, however, Christ’s Coming in AD70 completed it. Again, salvation came through or via the Cross of Calvary, the Victory of the Cross had an out working to completion in that generation. This is NOT saying that there was some inherent deficiency in the Cross, NO, it is saying the process of salvation started and finished with the parousia of God in Christ - His First and the parousia being the book-ends of Salvation - both encapsulating the Cross.

The disciples know salvation started at the cross but was NOT completed at the cross. Their Christian hope rested on the oath and promise of God. They also knew there High Priest would return before that generation passed away. Jesus emphasized this in His teaching. So they waited in eager anticipation for the finished work of salvation, or atonement. Peter wrote of these things: “. . . who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (1 Peter 1:5)

When did our High Priest come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people? This question seems to be ignored by many Christians today. It is of vital importance, however, because unless our High Priest appears who can be saved? The Bible explains and interprets itself.

The example is set in the Old Testament. Every year on the Day of Atonement the high priest would enter in to the Presence behind the veil in the Holiest of all. “Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.” (Leviticus 23:27,28)

The High Priest must come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people so they know the blood of the sacrifice atoned for their sins. If the High Priest does not appear the people have no assurance of salvation. No appearance, no forgiveness.
Jesus Christ is our High Priest. “This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.” (Hebrews 6:19, 20) It is obvious by these verses that He did enter the Presence behind the veil. And the Christians of that generation waited!
(Hebrews 9:28)
Jesus, representing us, was in the Presence of God at the time of the writing of Hebrews. All of that generation knew it would take the return of Jesus to complete the work of atonement. Thus they spoke of this redemptive work as a hope.

If Christ didn’t return, as some Christians would have us believe, then no one can truly say he has complete salvation. If Christ hasn’t come out from the Presence behind the veil, then the work of atonement is an unfinished work. Here is but another folly of Futurism.

The good news is Jesus did return! (The good news, or Gospel, is not preached correctly unless the Second Coming of Christ is included.) So if he has not returned then no Christian can say they are saved they can only say that they have a hope of salvation. If the New Covenant believer has been waiting for yet another stage of Christ’s work then what makes the New Covenant any better than the Old?

Question
(1)Were did any of disciples/Jewish writer of the New Testament say their salvation was completed at the cross without the High Priest coming out from behind the veil, or out of the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people so they know the blood of the sacrifice atoned for their sins?

(2) Were does any of disciples / Jewish writers of the New Testament say complete salvation that came with the parousia was 2.000 years away.

(3) Were in the Old Testament does it teach the High Priest come out from the Holy of Holies thousands of years away from the first?

(4) If salvation was completed at the cross why did Paul say their salvation is nearer than when they believed years after the cross? . (Romans 13:11) These questions are but other follys of Futurism.

[MichaelCadry]

Dear Vivian,

Thanks again for being there for me!! These two, Hidden Manna and InChrist Always are ranting about verses in the Bible that they take out of context and ascern a new meaning to them. They will definitely be very surprised when things come to the full.

Again, Vivian, thanks SO MUCH!!!!


With the Adoration of God and His Son, and His Angels,

MichaelCadry

[Hidden Manna]

A question I ponder, hidden manna and inchristalways, is if Christ has returned and made all things new and the new heaven and new earth await believers, then what is the problem? Why do you insist on pounding this fact into believers, who will enter the glorious world awaiting them upon their physical death?

Does it matter what they think as long as they believe in their Savior? Or must they believe as you claim?



vivian

Thanks Vivan for affirming as you said this FACT that Christ has returned and made all things new and the new heaven and new earth.

MC thinks we are picking on him and you say we are pounding this FACT into believers. I guess the same could be said of Jesus, John and Paul. Thanks again for your observation.

If I hated you people I would have just kept silent and let you live in your misery of not believing these FACTS. LOL and God Bless

[barnasha]

"I am The Lord your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:2-3 RSV)

a "fact" is an idol, a "god before". be perfect by not making mistakes, "be perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect". there is no need to have 'sides', or consider religions right (in place of God being right),

that is all stuff of the world, lift thine eyes hillward!!!

[InChristAlways]

"I am The Lord your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:2-3 RSV)

a "fact" is an idol, a "god before". be perfect by not making mistakes, "be perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect". there is no need to have 'sides', or consider religions right (in place of God being right),

that is all stuff of the world, lift thine eyes hillward!!!

Of course you are correct. Then why do so many eyes focus on "physical" Jesus, Israel and Jerusalem today instead of the Jerusalem above? Didn't God glorify Himself to Israel in the first century by the destruction of their Idol Temple and city?
I indeed lift my eyes to the NAME of Jesus Christ, the glory of God and not down to this "earthly" world. Good post bro.

Isaiah 30:25 There will be on every high mountain And on every high hill Rivers [and] streams of waters, In the day of the great slaughter, When the towers fall. 26 Moreover the light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, And the light of the sun will be sevenfold, As the light of seven days, In the day that the LORD binds up the bruise of His people And heals the stroke of their wound. 27 Behold, the name of the LORD comes from afar, Burning [with] His anger, And [His] burden [is] heavy; His lips are full of indignation, And His tongue like a devouring fire.

Ezekiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the Day that I am Glorified," says the Lord GOD.

[Hidden Manna]

"I am The Lord your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:2-3 RSV)

a "fact" is an idol, a "god before". be perfect by not making mistakes, "be perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect". there is no need to have 'sides', or consider religions right (in place of God being right),

that is all stuff of the world, lift thine eyes hillward!!!

Okay wiseguy, the word fact may have one word that means that, but in modern day understanding this is not the case. Perphaps Vivian should have stated that the word “Fact” that she was using had a strange twist to it’s well know meaning. However I doubt seriously that she meant an idol. duh

7 entries found for fact .

fact P Pronunciation Key (f kt)
n.
Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.

Idiom:
in (point of) fact
In reality or in truth; actually.

[Latin factum ,deed , from neuter past participle of facere ,to do . See dh -in Indo-European Roots.]
Usage Note: Fact has a long history of usage in the sense “allegation of fact,” as in “This tract was distributed to thousands of American teachers, but the facts and the reasoning are wrong” (Albert Shanker). This practice has led to the introduction of the phrases true facts and real facts, as in The true facts of the case may never be known. These usages may occasion qualms among critics who insist that facts can only be true, but the usages are often useful for emphasis.

Result of search for "fact":

170 'Oholah o-hol-aw' in form a feminine of 168 , but in fact for .Oholahh {o-hol-aw'}; from 168 ; her tent (i.e. idolatrous sanctuary); Oholah, a symbol. name for Samaria:--Aholah.

983 betach beh'takh from 982 ; properly, a place of refuge; abstract, safety, both the fact (security) and the feeling (trust); often (adverb with or without preposition) safely:--assurance, boldly, (without) care(- less), confidence, hope, safe(-ly, -ty), secure, surely.


Good one ICA

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Hi, I'm new to this site (don't even have an avatar yet).

This is a pretty deep discussion and I don't know if I have the brains to handle it. I don't want to write MichaelCadry off as a false prophet, but some of the stuff he says doesn't seem to line up with the Scriptures. We have to remember to not put our own interpretation into God's Word. I do agree that the Second Coming hasn't happened yet and that the Last Days are soon but only God the Father knows the day or the hour. I'm going to have faith and put my trust in the Jesus Christ. I personally think that's all that matters!

By the way, I've read the Left Behind books and while they are interesting, often there are two many Bible verses in the books - hello, this is meant to be fiction, not a devotional! They are also not terribly well written and last of all the theology of the books is major screwy.
We shouldn't worry ourselves to death about the Last Days but have faith in Jesus and tell people of Him in order that the Kingdom of Heaven grows.

Having faith in Jesus is one thing. Keeping that faith is another thing altogether. I think there need to be more resources that encourage and aid struggling Christians and less of this bashing other Christian beliefs.

God Bless you guys!


Christian