"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Exodus 22:18)

[steamer]

Surely even you can distinguish between the crime of murder, and a capital offence resulting in execution?

Oh, of course, we know that witchcraft doesn't work; how enlightened we are.

Yes even I can distinguish the difference. Perhaps you can tell me which state holds witchcraft to be a capitol offence? Perhaps even you can understand that killing outside the sanction of the law is murder.

[Solly]

Israel held witchcraft to be a capital offence; England, America and most of Europe did also, for a long time. If you believe in its power, then you take action against it. We can say that w/c doesn't exist, but that is not always the point; if someone is seeking to redirect the loyalites of your citizens, and turn them into traitors, then you take action.

[steamer]

Israel held witchcraft to be a capital offence; England, America and most of Europe did also, for a long time. If you believe in its power, then you take action against it. We can say that w/c doesn't exist, but that is not always the point; if someone is seeking to redirect the loyalites of your citizens, and turn them into traitors, then you take action.

Which explains why the Romans offed Jesus, but not why anyone would hold witchcraft to be something to worry about. People could make the case that Christians are trying to take over the government. Should we kill them?

My view is that if the bible didn't say anything about it then you would not care. The question really is, why should you care? You think witches have magic powers and Christians don't? Perhaps praying is a kind of witchcraft, from my view it looks the same. How is a Christian "blessing" any different from a witches? How about healing? Can healing someone even be a bad thing? I don't see Christian activities to be very much different than Wiccan ones. I just think that whatever power either of you think you have is either non-existent or it exists but it comes from yourselves. There's also biblical accounts of Christian curses, like the bald guy and the bears and Jesus and the fig tree. There is no difference that I can see between a Christian and a witch.

[Malista_Dove]

I read somewhere, not sure where, that the ancient term for the word "witch" means murderer or evil doer. This would mean that the phrase "Thou Shalt not suffer a witch to live" would mean "Thou shalt not allow a murder to live"...Which means a totally different thing than what many people believe it means. This does not mean thou shalt not allow a shaman, a healer, or a magick worker to live.

I believe I might have read this is Raven Grimassi's book "The Ancient Origins and Teachings of Wicca."

If anyone can find truth backing this up...please do. If not argue, discuss, or whatever you wish to do.

[Durthorin]

I read somewhere, not sure where, that the ancient term for the word "witch" means murderer or evil doer. This would mean that the phrase "Thou Shalt not suffer a witch to live" would mean "Thou shalt not allow a murder to live"...Which means a totally different thing than what many people believe it means. This does not mean thou shalt not allow a shaman, a healer, or a magick worker to live.

I believe I might have read this is Raven Grimassi's book "The Ancient Origins and Teachings of Wicca."

If anyone can find truth backing this up...please do. If not argue, discuss, or whatever you wish to do.

One of the original versions tranlates that line as "Thou shalt not allow a posinor to live". Supposedly changed to make an english King happy. One thing to not.. in other places some things are said just as bad.. don't make the mistake that even if this line is not really about witches.. still witchcraft, pagan worship etc.. are soundly and oftenly spoken out against in any translation of the Bible.

Brighid Bless, Dur

[Malista_Dove]

One of the original versions tranlates that line as "Thou shalt not allow a posinor to live". Supposedly changed to make an english King happy. One thing to not.. in other places some things are said just as bad.. don't make the mistake that even if this line is not really about witches.. still witchcraft, pagan worship etc.. are soundly and oftenly spoken out against in any translation of the Bible.

Brighid Bless, Dur

Thank you. I knew that it was something to that sort. I am glad you replied.

[*love*]

many different people translate the meaning of the bible in many different ways. there can be lots of different meanings to one phrase. no one really nows wat the phrase'thou shall not suffer a witch to live" was meant to mean nor do we know if that was even the original context. remember......the bible was written by men, not god and men make mistakes. and also remember that the bible we know today wasnt actually put together until the 4th century by the the roman emperor constantine who revised it for his own personal gain.

[kristov]

Sounds like the Ordo Malleus need to take a look at earth!

(nobody knows what i'm talking about, that's whats so beautiful!)

[technomage]

Greetings, *love*,

Pythagoras is (at least for the moment) no longer actively posting. He's temporarily restricted from posting--that's what "caught in the matrix" means.

many different people translate the meaning of the bible in many different ways. there can be lots of different meanings to one phrase. no one really nows wat the phrase'thou shall not suffer a witch to live" was meant to mean nor do we know if that was even the original context.

While there is sometimes some disagreement over what passages of the Bible mean, there is certainly little reasonable disagreement over what this particular passage says.

remember......the bible was written by men, not god and men make mistakes. and also remember that the bible we know today wasnt actually put together until the 4th century by the the roman emperor constantine who revised it for his own personal gain.

Hmmm ... no. All Constantine did was order the printing of fifty Bibles to be used in churches in Constantinople. The list of books used to print those Bibles was used for some 150 or 200 years before Constantine's reign, and we have sufficient confidence in the text to know how few changes were made--in all probability, none were deliberately made, and the scribes seem to have done their best to be very careful.

Additionally, this particular passage was from the Torah--writings that the Jews have preserved for at least 2500 years. The Christian version is a faithful and reasonably accurate translation of the Jewish writings.

[Lady Macbeth]

Thanks, Justin. It's nice to see someone who doesn't totally malign Constantine, especially among fellow Pagans.

What confuses me about discussions of Exodus 22:18 is why participants on both sides of the issue (Christian and Pagan) want so desperately for there to be "some other" interpretation of that passage - for it to mean something other than "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (or in ESV version, "You shall not permit a sorceress to live"). If that line were not clear on its own, it is reinforced two lines later in Exodus 22:20 - "“Whoever sacrifices to any god, other than the Lord alone, shall be devoted to destruction."

These people did not like outsiders who worshipped other gods and/or practiced magic. That's all there is to it. Their intolerance was to the degree that they considered them lesser people and not worthy of living among them. Ethnocentrism has always existed. Individual groups of people have been in possession of the quality of thinking their way of life to be "correct" since time began. Trying to apply our standards of "political correctness" to people who did not have "political correctness" does not work.

The people who lived under the laws of Exodus 22 rejected outside belief structures and the practice of magic, and some people today still follow those beliefs. I don't think it gets any more plain than that.

[technomage]

These people did not like outsiders who worshipped other gods and/or practiced magic. That's all there is to it. Their intolerance was to the degree that they considered them lesser people and not worthy of living among them.

Woah, Lady Macbeth--wait a second here. I think you're judging bronze-age Hebrews by computer-age understanding, and that means you're not going to get an accurate picture.

While we quite agree that the witchcraft mentioned in the passage does mean witchcraft (not poisonong, or some such twaddle), it does need to be pointed out that what they meant by "witchcraft" is radically different than what you or I may mean by the term. In Middle Eastern cultures, witches were not sweet, benevolent Wiccans who practiced the Rede: witches were capable of healing, yes, but they were also capable of cursing--and far more likely to do so!

In the culture of the time, witchcraft was not simply "just another religion." Heck, a religion wasn't simply "just another religion." Very often in the middle east of that time, the people on the other side of the hill who practiced another religion wanted you dead--they wanted your land, your cattle, whatever wealth you may have, and they wanted your blood watering the dirt. If they were especially nice about it they'd save the women and children and enslave them--rape was optional, but not uncommon. If the other tribe came over the hill, they were coming for blood.

When these texts started taking their final form (during the Babylonian Captivity), the Jews were a captive people in a very strange land--they had just had their kingdom, their home taken away from them. Everyone had relatives or friends who had been killed by the Babylonians, and everyone who was left alive was on their way to being a slave.

So yeah, maybe they're not terribly tolerant by today's standards ... but then again, when's the last time the folks in the next town over were going to come to your town, kill the men, rape the women, take everyone who survived captive and make them slaves?

Brutal times led to brutal customs, and tolerance is a luxury of the peace that we have today.

[Lady Macbeth]

Woah, Lady Macbeth--wait a second here. I think you're judging bronze-age Hebrews by computer-age understanding, and that means you're not going to get an accurate picture.

<SNIPPED FOR SPACE, but being replied to.>

That was my bad for not clarifying - I do understand the idea of times having changed; however, I am not fully convinced that people as a whole have. I know that part of it is the fact that, as you pointed out, we are living by computer-age understanding. We are a much more global community, and as such, those of us who are global-minded get a skewed perception of how much violence is actually in the world as opposed to what we perceive there to be. (My psychology professor pointed out that if the same ratio of murders to other crime happened in real life as happened on television, the entire United States would be depopulated in three months due to murder alone.)

However, that said and understood (that the world is not the violent world of the bronze-age Hebrews or Hollywood screens), there is still an element of that in our world. We continue to fight the stereotypes that we (as pagans) are violent people who seek to harm our neighbors. Would our neighbors be afraid of us if they thought that we use our magic to bring them free tea and cookies to clear up their cold and expect no money or return favor? Every single time I visit a Pagan forum, there is always some kid who wants a love spell to make a guy love them, wants a curse to cast on someone who's picking on them in the locker room, or wants a spell for easy money. Even though it is a minority, and it is people who don't understand witchcraft, it can't be ignored - because those things feed the very same perceptions and fears that caused Exodus 22:18 to be penned in the first place.

I agree that our "witchy ancestors" were probably people to fear, and that made the authors of Exodus justified in what they wrote. That is why I don't understand why either side of the coin would dispute what they wrote.

Hope I didn't make my thoughts more confusing. I'm confusing myself by trying to rewrite it so that it's clear.

[James Peter]

Sounds like the Ordo Malleus need to take a look at earth!

(nobody knows what i'm talking about, that's whats so beautiful!)

I do. =][=

[technomage]

I do. =][=

I do, too--I have a friend who plays.

[OckhamsRazor]

This particular command is specific to the time and to Israel. It's important to remember that Idolatry was a big issue for God in regard to His chosen people. Witches generally would have been representatives of these other religions. The people of these other religions would claim to do supernatural acts and to prophesy. This could deceive the people into going astray. God provided real supernatural signs for His people. So you see the witches in this context would represent the competition. This is a problem because first, God has a right to expect His people to be faithful, second He did allot for these people and was entitled to some gratitude, third He loved His people and wanted a relationship with them and witches would have disrupted that, fourth the prophets and foundations for salvation to the world were to come from Israel. They should have set an example for people. (The above numbering doesn't represent actual importance of the various points) I hope this clarifies the issue a bit.