"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." (Exodus 22:18)

[Lady Macbeth]

This particular command is specific to the time and to Israel. It's important to remember that Idolatry was a big issue for God in regard to His chosen people. Witches generally would have been representatives of these other religions. The people of these other religions would claim to do supernatural acts and to prophesy. This could deceive the people into going astray. God provided real supernatural signs for His people. So you see the witches in this context would represent the competition. This is a problem because first, God has a right to expect His people to be faithful, second He did allot for these people and was entitled to some gratitude, third He loved His people and wanted a relationship with them and witches would have disrupted that, fourth the prophets and foundations for salvation to the world were to come from Israel. They should have set an example for people. (The above numbering doesn't represent actual importance of the various points) I hope this clarifies the issue a bit.

Playing Devil's Advocate here (which is highly amusing in its own right, considering the number of times I've been seriously accused of being such) to throw out a question on this point: would you say that it is not as big of a concern today? You mention that it's specific to the time and to Israel (which I agree with, I'm just reiterating to make sure I'm wording clearly) and the points you outlined are thus alluded to as concerns for people of 2000+ years ago Israel. Do you feel that Christians of today are not as vulnerable to competition from other religions, not as susceptible to seeming supernatural work of witches and are more likely to show gratitude to and have a relationship with God despite witches living in and around them? (I'm not going to include whether or not foundations for salvation of the world still come from Israel - that discussion opens too many cans of worms.)

[Sevivon1913]

"You shall not allow a sorceress to live" doesn't imply that "witches", as understood in the Celtic-Norse tradition, are to be killed; witches don't practice "sorcery".

[technomage]

Hi, Sevi,

"Celtic-Norse tradition" is some really bad anthropology foisted on the Wiccan community by some well-meaning (but not well informed) Wiccans.

And yes, the modern Hebrew word for Wicca is maKashaph. (Sorry, I can't do the Hebrew letter coding.)

[Sevivon1913]

Are you saying the Celtic-Norse tradition concerning witches is wrong? I'm only going by my local history and folklore, which is both Celtic and Norse.........and we had one witch here ba
ck in the 19th century who was just somebody extraordinarily eccentric, knew what every herb, etc did, knew alternative treatments and (being a Christian also) could heal people in the name of the trinity. The church never had a problem with those people; because they were Christian (the notion that witches were devil worshippers is a continental idea, not scandinavian or british). That's the tradition I meant; I didn't mean the Walt Disney image of witches as hooked nosed old hags with broomsticks or the Nickelodian image of witches as "cool teenage" cute wiccans.

[Durthorin]

Are you saying the Celtic-Norse tradition concerning witches is wrong? I'm only going by my local history and folklore, which is both Celtic and Norse.........and we had one witch here ba
ck in the 19th century who was just somebody extraordinarily eccentric, knew what every herb, etc did, knew alternative treatments and (being a Christian also) could heal people in the name of the trinity. The church never had a problem with those people; because they were Christian (the notion that witches were devil worshippers is a continental idea, not scandinavian or british). That's the tradition I meant; I didn't mean the Walt Disney image of witches as hooked nosed old hags with broomsticks or the Nickelodian image of witches as "cool teenage" cute wiccans.

A freind of mine once remarked all you have to do to be on the wrong end of the fire with Christianity is perform any kind of divination.. runes, tarot, scrying.. etc..

[technomage]

Are you saying the Celtic-Norse tradition concerning witches is wrong?

Well, without knowing what you specifically mean by "Celtic-Norse tradition," it's difficult to say exactly what's true and what's false. Your illustration gave some interesting insight, but "local history" is frequently not what it's cracked up to be, and "folklore" is actually a lot more mutable (and short lived) than many people assume.

Fundamentally speaking, there was no "Celtic-Norse" tradition: the Celts and the Norse (as most people think of the terms) were not even really contemporaneous, and neither the Celts nor the Norse had unified cultures within their own groups, much less between the two.

the notion that witches were devil worshippers is a continental idea, not scandinavian or british

Well, yes, both England and Scandinavia saw witches as "devil worshippers," mainly because by the time the Witch Hunts began, England and Scandinavia were quite well integrated with European culture. For the most parts, witch-hunts were extremely sporadic until after the Protestant Reformation--most of the "Witch Panics" occurred in areas where there was social upheaval and strife, frequently strife between Protestant and Catholic Christians.

[Trout]

Get the matches.

[technomage]

Fried trout?

[Sevivon1913]

Well, without knowing what you specifically mean by "Celtic-Norse tradition," it's difficult to say exactly what's true and what's false. Your illustration gave some interesting insight, but "local history" is frequently not what it's cracked up to be, and "folklore" is actually a lot more mutable (and short lived) than many people assume.

Fundamentally speaking, there was no "Celtic-Norse" tradition: the Celts and the Norse (as most people think of the terms) were not even really contemporaneous, and neither the Celts nor the Norse had unified cultures within their own groups, much less between the two.

Celts and Norse lived at the same time in the western isles and the two cultures amalgamated; this wasn't the case on the mainland, of course.

Well, yes, both England and Scandinavia saw witches as "devil worshippers," mainly because by the time the Witch Hunts began, England and Scandinavia were quite well integrated with European culture. For the most parts, witch-hunts were extremely sporadic until after the Protestant Reformation--most of the "Witch Panics" occurred in areas where there was social upheaval and strife, frequently strife between Protestant and Catholic Christians.

Hmm, I think we're looking at different chronologies here. I was thinking of pre-Christian society; there were no "witch-hunts" or animosity toward witches until the Christians came along, and Celtic-Norse culture died out in most places thanks to Christian hegemony.

I suspect that even the Oracle of Delphi would be called a witch, had they lived at the same time as Christians; oh, if only we'd all been so fortunate!

[technomage]

Celts and Norse lived at the same time in the western isles and the two cultures amalgamated; this wasn't the case on the mainland, of course.

Eh ... if you're strictly looking at pre-Christian cultures, then the only answer is "sort of." About 300 years before the Norwegians came to the Isles, the Picts were converted to Christianity. Of course, that far out in the boondocks, how "complete" that Christianisation was is anyone's guess.

Hmm, I think we're looking at different chronologies here. I was thinking of pre-Christian society; there were no "witch-hunts" or animosity toward witches until the Christians came along, and Celtic-Norse culture died out in most places thanks to Christian hegemony.

We are., Yes, there were no witch persecutions recorded in Celtic or Norse history before Christianization. Early Scandinavian and English records involve some condemnation of "witches" (however the term is translated). However, the main activity of "witch persecution," so called, was not with the early Christianization of Europe, but with the much later social and political disruption that occurred during the time of the Reformation.

Not all of that social and political chaos was caused by the arguments over religion (though they certainly helped). Basically, a lot of the same persecutions that were hurled against European Jewry were also hurled at the rather nebulous concept of "witches." Unfortunately, both real Jews and so-called "witches" were persecuted under false accusations.

I suspect that even the Oracle of Delphi would be called a witch, had they lived at the same time as Christians; oh, if only we'd all been so fortunate!

Either "witch" or "posessing a familiar spirit"--there's a reference in Acts somewhere about a pythoness--a seer somewhat similar to the Oracle.

[Trout]

Either "witch" or "posessing a familiar spirit"--there's a reference in Acts somewhere about a pythoness--a seer somewhat similar to the Oracle.

Witches burn hotter, I like them better.

[technomage]

Witches burn hotter, I like them better.

The better to fry you with, Trout my dear.

I'll even invite Sevi--trout is kosher, after all.

[Durthorin]

Witches burn hotter, I like them better.

Actually we are hotter...and better looking and wickedly smart...

[guacamole]

Sounds like the Ordo Malleus need to take a look at earth!

(nobody knows what i'm talking about, that's whats so beautiful!)

The grey knights cannot be bothered to hunt mere witches. We respectfully request you submit your petition to that pack of posseurs known as the Ordo Hereticus.

Thank You,
Brother Captain Stern

[dwolfe983]

Hi All,
What I heard. The bible at the time of Homosexual King James, is the first version of the bible in which 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' appears. King Jimmy also write a book called Demonology so the cleric translators included that line in order to please their king. This may or may not be true but it works for me.
bright blessings
dwolfe983