Finding money, finding god

[Tickle Me Goody]

This may annoy atheists and agnostics, but I believe it to be true.

When I was young I had a friend who was always finding money. We were both pretty poor and we liked to go the movies. Kenny seemded to be amazingly lucky and would often find enough for us to do so.

I once asked him how he got to be so lucky. His answer was basically: "I'm not lucky, I'm just always looking for coins. People lose coins all the time. Whenever I see something shiny, I pick it up and look at lt. Sometimes it is metal or glass but often it is a coin."

So, I believe, it is with God. It does not take luck or superstition to find Him. He is always around somewhere and those who look do find him. those who do not look do not find Him.

IMHO



GG

[sandlewood]

He is always around somewhere and those who look do find him. those who do not look do not find Him.

I suspect what you may really mean is that those who found him were looking for him and those who did not find him were not really looking for him.

How do you explain all of the atheists who were once theists? (I mean, without resorting to the No True Scotsman fallacy.)

Can you give me a precise meaning for the word “find” as you’ve used it? Somehow I don’t think you mean that I’ll be able to detect God with any of my five physical senses.

Do you have a way to determine that a person really did find God? If someone claims that he found God, will you be able to say, “No you did not really find him. You are mistaken”?

Can you give me a procedure for finding God, and if I follow that procedure honestly and diligently and still do not find a god, will you conclude that a god does not exist?


In your analogy, when your friend finds money, he can show the money to you or to anyone else. This is objective evidence. Unfortunately, this aspect of the analogy doesn’t carry over to theology, making it a weak analogy

[LGM]

This may annoy Goody Goody, but I believe it to be true.

When I was young, I had a friend who always told really bad, over simplified analogies to try and explain complex and nuanced situations in life he didn’t really understand. We were both pretty smart, and we liked to discuss things like philosophy and theology. But Kenny seemed to be amazingly handicapped in his ability to discuss things without resorting to this wretched habit. It seemed he was lazy, and so desperately wanted to see the world through the cartoon caricature of condescending and bad analogies.

I once asked him how he could be so shallow in his thinking. His answer was basically:
“Life is like a giant pool, and I can’t really swim. So I prefer to stay in the shallow end and regurgitate poor analogies to compensate, while I watch you drown in the deep end”

So I believe it is with all those who tell condescending, poor analogies to explain something beyond their limited comprehension. It does not take luck or superstition to find these people, all you have to do is click on Apolegetics 301 and there they are…

LGM
…IMHO…

[Tickle Me Goody]

I suspect what you may really mean is that those who found him were looking for him and those who did not find him were not really looking for him.

How do you explain all of the atheists who were once theists? (I mean, without resorting to the No True Scotsman fallacy.)

Can you give me a precise meaning for the word “find” as you’ve used it? Somehow I don’t think you mean that I’ll be able to detect God with any of my five physical senses.

Do you have a way to determine that a person really did find God? If someone claims that he found God, will you be able to say, “No you did not really find him. You are mistaken”?

Can you give me a procedure for finding God, and if I follow that procedure honestly and diligently and still do not find a god, will you conclude that a god does not exist?


In your analogy, when your friend finds money, he can show the money to you or to anyone else. This is objective evidence. Unfortunately, this aspect of the analogy doesn’t carry over to theology, making it a weak analogy

There was nothing weak about the analogy. Just because he shows it to me or not does not negate the fact that he found it. If he were to spend it and then tell me about it would be no less true.

So how does one prove that he found God? No more than my friend could prove that he found money that he spent. He does not prove God, of course. If that were possible, there would be no discussion.

What do I say about those who did not find God? You did not tell me enough to even begin to respond. How long did he look? How did he approach it?

I can only make one suggestion. That is to pray to God and ask him that, if he exists, to show that to you in manner that will satisfy you personally -- without defining to God what that will be (like miracles or appear to you). If you then earnestly and openly search I believe that you will find God. Jesus said that you would. I believe him and I have seen it in action.

You have to careful though. You might actually find God and not like the box that you get yourself get into. C.S.Lewis said (of his own conversion to theism) that man searching for God is like the mouse searching for the cat.

GG

[Tickle Me Goody]

This may annoy Goody Goody, but I believe it to be true.

When I was young, I had a friend who always told really bad, over simplified analogies to try and explain complex and nuanced situations in life he didn’t really understand. We were both pretty smart, and we liked to discuss things like philosophy and theology. But Kenny seemed to be amazingly handicapped in his ability to discuss things without resorting to this wretched habit. It seemed he was lazy, and so desperately wanted to see the world through the cartoon caricature of condescending and bad analogies.

I once asked him how he could be so shallow in his thinking. His answer was basically:
“Life is like a giant pool, and I can’t really swim. So I prefer to stay in the shallow end and regurgitate poor analogies to compensate, while I watch you drown in the deep end”

So I believe it is with all those who tell condescending, poor analogies to explain something beyond their limited comprehension. It does not take luck or superstition to find these people, all you have to do is click on Apolegetics 301 and there they are…

LGM
…IMHO…

You are good at Rhymes, LGM.


GG: Has LGM ever prayed for God to reveal himself?

[Heathen Dawn]

I suspect what you may really mean is that those who found him were looking for him and those who did not find him were not really looking for him.

Or they may not have let him any way of showing himself. Oh, I could have, after the first time I heard the Goddess and the God speaking in my head, gone to a psychiatrist to get checked, but then I would not be justified in complaining of lack of evidence for Them.

Are you really open to it, or are you going to explain any phenomenon away naturalistically?

[learning]

Sandalwood:
In your analogy, when your friend finds money, he can show the money to you or to anyone else. This is objective evidence. Unfortunately, this aspect of the analogy doesn’t carry over to theology, making it a weak analogy

learning:
I don't think there is anything wrong with this analogy, as Jesus Himself used them a lot, you know, like 'the Kingdom of God is like...' parables,
'The Kingdom of God is like ... a woman who lost a coin...
"" "" ... a pearl of great value....
etc.

"Creativey is more than just being different. Anybody can play weird-- that's easy. What's hard is to be as simple as Bach. Making the simple complicated is comonplace--making the complicated simple--that's creativity."
by Charles Mingus, American jazz composer and pianist.

[roger_pearse]

How do you explain all of the atheists who were once theists?

May I ask what your explanation is?

The normal one is that these sometime 'theists' grew up in religious families, but in a secular culture, and as they grew older they moved from conforming to one to conforming to the other, around the time that children normally (and naturally) rebell against their parents.

As a rule, if they become atheists they always seem to flatter themselves outrageously about how 'rational' and 'freethinking' they are. Which is quite funny, really. After all, conformity to societal values really demands no thought and the practise of few inconvenient virtues. The wonder is that so few do this.

Can you give me ...

Do you have a way ...

...will you be able to say...

Can you give me ...

Phrasing jeers as questions is something anyone can do, on any subject. Can you explain to me why anyone owes you an answer to all this?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

[LGM]

GG: Has LGM ever prayed for God to reveal himself?

I’ve prayed for you to stop being a condescending pious prig who uses his alleged belief in having “found” something he calls “god” to bludgeon all those he suspects haven’t found the exact same thing…

LGM
…but alas, its not working, and I realize you only do it out of your desperate insecurity…

[LGM]

May I ask what your explanation is?

Maybe there are as many explanations as theists who have rejected the dogmas of organized, orthodox religions throughout history? Including your precious Jesus who rejected the orthodox religion of his day. Ever think of that? In your short sighted analysis of the history of theism and apostasy?

…no, I didn’t think so…like Goody, you probably prefer the shallow end of the analogy pool…

The normal one is that these sometime 'theists'… {snip wretched cartoon from Roger’s mind}…

The “normal” one Roger? “sometimes” Roger? Isn’t it nice for Roger to enlighten us all with what “normal” is? Is this phrasing to be construed as a “jeer” Roger?

Can you explain why anyone owes anyone an answer for anything on Tweb? Roger?

All the best,

LGM

[Superbug]

Or maybe you're so desperate to find God that you rationalize and you think you found something when in fact it's just your imagination.

[Tickle Me Goody]

GG: Has LGM ever prayed for God to reveal himself?

I’ve prayed for you to stop being a condescending pious prig who uses his alleged belief in having “found” something he calls “god” to bludgeon all those he suspects haven’t found the exact same thing…

LGM
…but alas, its not working, and I realize you only do it out of your desperate insecurity…

I take it back. Not only do you rhyme well but you also are very good with insulting, prose diatribes.



GG: LGM thinks that he is a brilliant rhyming psychologist.

[LGM]

I take it back.

Take what back? This:

So, I believe, it is with God. It does not take luck or superstition to find Him. He is always around somewhere and those who look do find him. those who do not look do not find Him.

...do you have any objection to this variation?

So, I believe, it is with Vishnu. It does not take luck or superstition to find Him. He is always around somewhere and those who look do find him. those who do not look do not find Him.

Any problem with that statement Goody?

...or the countless others I could subsititute?...does it matter to you Goody? As long as I claim to have found something I can call god? Would that satisfy you Goody? Would that stop you from bludgeoning people who you can't quite accept or understand?

Not only do you rhyme well but you also are very good with insulting, prose diatribes.

The thing about my insults is that I KNOW I'm doing it, and I know the REASON I'm doing it...

LGM
...I wonder if you can say the same?...

[Tickle Me Goody]

...do you have any objection to this variation?

So, I believe, it is with Vishnu. It does not take luck or superstition to find Him. He is always around somewhere and those who look do find him. those who do not look do not find Him.

Any problem with that statement Goody?

Yes. It is that you have just made it up as strawman. If you were sincere, I would entertain it and not insult your beliefs.

...or the countless others I could subsititute?...does it matter to you Goody? As long as I claim to have found something I can call god? Would that satisfy you Goody? Would that stop you from bludgeoning people who you can't quite accept or understand?

I am simply discussing, LGM. You are the one who is in a snit and insulting for no better reason that you do not like my oulook on life. You can always go elsewhere and not look at my posts.

The thing about my insults is that I KNOW I'm doing it, and I know the REASON I'm doing it...

No doubt about it. Your sabatical did not improve your arrogance very much, but I am used to it now. We need someone like you since Socrates left.


GG: LGM The master of insults.

[sandlewood]

There was nothing weak about the analogy. Just because he shows it to me or not does not negate the fact that he found it. If he were to spend it and then tell me about it would be no less true.

It’s not necessary that he spend it before showing you. He could decide that on the next coin he finds he will make it a point of showing it to you before he spends it. On the other hand, if a person who is not your friend claims to have found money and spent it, wouldn’t you be less likely to believe he found it than if he could actually show it to you? What if he also claimed that it was a magic coin that cured people of cancer? But…opps…well, he just happened to have spent it before he could show it to you. But of course, you can always find your own magic cancer-curing coin if you’re willing to look for it.

He does not prove God, of course. If that were possible, there would be no discussion.

Then let there be no discussion. That’s no good reason for there being a lack of proof. I’m often amazed when people seem to say, “I know there’s no proof. What’s your point?”

What do I say about those who did not find God? You did not tell me enough to even begin to respond. How long did he look? How did he approach it?

That’s not what I asked. I asked about those who were once theists but now no longer are. They did find god. But now they atheists.

But anyway, how long is it supposed to take? How must one approach it?

I can only make one suggestion. That is to pray to God and ask him that, if he exists, to show that to you in manner that will satisfy you personally -- without defining to God what that will be (like miracles or appear to you). If you then earnestly and openly search I believe that you will find God. Jesus said that you would. I believe him and I have seen it in action.

And if I earnestly and openly search (even though you have not told me what exactly I’m supposed to be looking for) and do not find anything, what is your conclusion? Will it be that it is not always possible to find evidence of a god? Or will it be that I was not really looking honestly?

You have to careful though. You might actually find God and not like the box that you get yourself get into.

I don’t think that is a problem. Like many atheists, I’m more interested in knowing what reality actually is, whatever it is. It has nothing to do with whether I like it or not. Though I wonder why you’d think it would be like being in a box. Is it necessary for you to think that atheists don’t believe a god exists just because they don’t like the idea of having to be obedient? Have you ever met a theist who didn’t want to be one but conceded that he had to be one because evidence confirmed it?

I notice that your signature says, “Seekers find God. Skeptics cannot.” That would seem to be contrary to the point of your post. It has been said on this forum before that God prevents skeptics from seeing that he exists. So it’s impossible for skeptics to “find” him.