Laws Against Incest May Be Relaxed. Good? Bad?

[AtheistArchon]

Hitler was the product of an incestuous marriage and his monorchidism was likely due to it. I am thinking the movie with Burt Reynolds, Deliverance, is the dream of lots of liberals. We will be hearing "squeal like a pig" replaced with pigs squealing if the ACLU and other morally bereft people have it their way.

- Are you for real or are you a sockpuppet?

- I'll presume you're real for a moment: look up Godwin's Law on the internet. You've used references to Hitler and Nazi death camps twice in two different threads now to make your argument.

[Minnesota]

Hitler was the product of an incestuous marriage and his monorchidism was likely due to it.

Alois Hitler, the illegitimate son of a housemaid, was born in Strones, Austria in 1837. He left home at the age of thirteen to serve as a cobbler's in Vienna. He did not enjoy the work and five years later joined the Imperial Customs Service.

In 1864 he married Anna Glass, the adopted daughter of another customs collector. Anna suffered from poor health and was unable to have children. When she died in 1883, Hitler married Franziska Matzelberger. She gave birth to two children before dying of tuberculosis.

Hitler married Klara Polzl in 1885. The couple had five children but only Adolf Hitler and a younger sister, Paula, survived to become adults.

Klara Polzl, the mother of Adolf Hitler, was born in Spital, Austria, in 1860. She married Alois Hitler, a senior customs official, in 1885. The couple had five children but only Adolf and a younger sister, Paula, survived to become adults.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERhitlerK.htm

Hitler's Family Tree ( Because the tree does not copy/paste correctly, access the link below for its expanded form )

Stephan Hiedler = Agnes Johann Polzl= Therese
(b. 1672) peasant (unknown) (b. 1752) Ledermuller
Walterschlag' (d. 6/8/1805) (b. 1761)
| 'Spital'
| |
| |
Johann Hiedler = Maria Anna Laurenz Polzl = Juliana Wallj
(5/11/1725-?) Neugschwandtner (b. 1788) (b.1797) Gross
'Walterschlag' 'Walterschlag' 'Spital Wolfgers
| |
| |
Martin Huttler = Anna Maria Goschel |______________
(11/17/1762) (8/23/1760) |
'Walterschlag' (12/7/1858) |
(1/10/1892) 'Spital' |
'Spital' | |
| |
| |
_____________________ |
| | |
Maria Anna = Johann George Johann von = Eva Maria Decker |
Schiklegruber Hiedler Nepomuk Hutler (b. 12/15/1792) |
(b. 4/15/1793) (b. 2/28/1792) (b. 3/19/1807) (d. 9/17/1888) |
(d. 1/7/1847) (d. after 1877) (d.9/17/1888) 'Spital' |
Strones 'Spital' 'Spital' | |
| | |
| | |
| Johanna Hutler = Johann Polzl
| (b. 1/19/1830) (b. 5/25/1828)
| (d. 2/8/1906) (d. 1/19/1902
| 'Spital' 'Spital'
| ____________________|
| |
Alois Shicklgruber = Klara Polzl
(leg. Hitler) (b. 8/12/1860)
(b. 6/7/1837) 'Spital'
'Strones' (d. 12/21/1908
(d. 1.3/1903) Linz-Urfahr
(Leonding
|
|
Adolf Hitler

(b. 4/20/1889)
'Braunau'
(d. 4/30/1945)
'Berlin'


http://members.tripod.com/~Propagander2/index-2.html

Karla Polzl is Alois Shicklgruber's 1st cousin once removed. Unless you have information to the contrary, I don't believe this would constitute incest, although the term "incest" is defined differently in different cultures and societies, and even at different times.

As for Hitler's supposed (never verified) monorchidism:

The aetiology of cryptorchidism [all forms of undscended testes] is for the most part unknown and appears to be multifactorial.

http://molehr.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/6/4/298

So while it may be interesting to speculate that such a condition occured because of the somewhat close relationship between Hitler's parents, this pretty well indicates such speculation is baseless. In fact, recent studies of cousin/cousin marriages show that genetic abnormalities do not occur any more frequently than in conventional marriages (Sorry, but I don't have any reference or links to provide.)

[CatholicSage]

Riiiiight... I think I might need to see this movie...

He has no idea what he's in for...

[Alien]

• Edited by a Moderator •

Moderator Notice

Did you really think that was appropriate man? (It was pretty funny though)

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

[Jack777]

Thank you Alien!

Need I say more?

Has anyone read the book by Robert Waite? If memory serves me, the name of the book is The Psychotic God. Very insightful.

[anthrogirl]

Funny how ignorant we americans can be when it comes to kinship studies. First-cousin and cross-cousin marriages have been happening all over the world since the dawn of humanity--with relatively little trouble. That we think it's "icky" is a social response based on our ideologies in the post-modern West.

ag

[Nicholas]

Funny how ignorant we americans can be when it comes to kinship studies. First-cousin and cross-cousin marriages have been happening all over the world since the dawn of humanity--with relatively little trouble. That we think it's "icky" is a social response based on our ideologies in the post-modern West.

ag

When you mentioned that they have been occuring "since the dawn of humanity", it reminded me of the fact that if one interperets the Bible as literal history, than we have atleast two instances of the entire human population being a result of incest.
Before going further I will simply ask three questions:
1. How much incest do you think occured at the time of Adam and Eve?
2. How much incest do think occured at the time of Noah's Flood?
and
3. Was the level of incest that occured moral or immoral?

[Lazy Agnostic]

Nothing like rolling your own.

[anthrogirl]

When you mentioned that they have been occuring "since the dawn of humanity", it reminded me of the fact that if one interperets the Bible as literal history, than we have atleast two instances of the entire human population being a result of incest.
Before going further I will simply ask three questions:
1. How much incest do you think occured at the time of Adam and Eve?

I don't know--when were they alive--6000 yrs. ago or so (according to Bishop Ussher)?

If so, then yes--cross-cousin marriage was taking place during that time within many groups in the Near and Far East.

2. How much incest do think occured at the time of Noah's Flood?

When was Noah's Flood said to occur?

Check out this informative selection on Hebrew Marriage Patterns:

http://www.umanitoba.ca/anthropology.../marriage.html

and
3. Was the level of incest that occured moral or immoral?

I reckon that depends on the belief systems of the groups in question.

best,
ag

[anthrogirl]

Nothing like rolling your own.

[Rubia Warren]

This is just me, but I think that God allowed the inbreeding to occur up to the point where He knew that if it continued, it'd begin messing up the gene pool. In the beginning they were brand new people with brand new genes- I guess they could have afforded to inbreed for the sake of populating.
My brother has Cyctic Fibrosis and is 17 years old. We were told by his CF doctors at the University of Michigan that the disease is most likely caused by European families long ago who were rich or royal and inbred like crazy in order to keep their bloodlines "pure". I haven't checked lately to see if that is still the theory, however. I don't have the disease because we have different dads (CF requires 2 recessive genes)- but I could be a carrier for all I know. My kids have been tested for CF and they are okay, so evidently I am not a carrier, or I could be but my husband is not- or we both are and just got lucky 3 times in a row.

I wonder, however, not so much with second cousins and relationships like that, but closer family members procreating together- first cousins, aunts with nephews, or anything like that, that if they don't see immediate effects like their direct children turning out slightly abnormal, if it messes something up for someone down the line- like their grandchildren, etc.

[Mountain Man]

Yes, that's the explanation I've read, that God permitted inbreeding until a certain generation at which point he forbade it, not because it was immoral but because it was dangerous to the offspring. To allow inbreeding now would be to break a command of God.

[Alien]

Oops, I got moderated! First time ever, I think.

By way of explanation, that little song I posted was composed during WW2, and caused a lot of amusement at the time. It was relevant to the subject matter of the thread because Hitler's monorchism (sp?) was being discussed and that song referred to it. It established that knowledge of Hitler's missing, erm, organ was at the very least part of the popular culture of the time.

I thought the offending word (a common term for testicles) would get by, given that without it the whole point of the song (and my point in posting it) would be lost. Oh well, I guess it's a fine line .... and sometimes, being an ex-pat Brit living in the US, I misjudge what is acceptable and what is not over here. It works in both directions ... words that are commonly used in normal conversation here are considered not-quite-polite in the UK.

[Sacrificial Ram]

I will have to say that these studies probably won't matter at ALL in the U.S.

There is a matter of custom. Sometimes custom means more than law.

For example, over 10 years ago, the laws against women going topless in public "in a non-sexual nature" were overturned as unconstitutional. That means , basically, topless bathing at public beaches is totally allowed.

Except for some rare cases the first couple of years, it is not done. It's totally legal, but it is not done. Custom (I am sure much to the dismay of many of the men) overtakes law.

[Bill Mutz]

Yes, that's the explanation I've read, that God permitted inbreeding until a certain generation at which point he forbade it, not because it was immoral but because it was dangerous to the offspring. To allow inbreeding now would be to break a command of God.

Pseudo-morality again. Sheesh, Christians have so many wrong ideas about morality.