salvation and choice

[RBerman]

You're no John the Baptist, George. Don't cloak your rudeness in BIble-ese. Repent.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Really??? So that person CHOSE to be born with a sinful nature (one that does not allow him to obey God)?

Yes, unless you reject original sin, in which we all sinned in Adam. If you reject original sin, you are not orthodox, and I have no desire to converse with heretics.

[Dee Dee Warren]

George that quite rude and arrogant.

Here is what I don't understand George, and why I choose to just maintain light banter with you. You come into these discussions without ever seeking to understand what the original thread starter is saying, only to [sorry this will be blunt] selfishly get on your own soapbox, when it is obvious that most people here have no clue as to what you are saying, something you seem to relish. And whenever you are called on it, you wax long on how the West is all just a bunch of sweaty pagans who can't understand your "pure" path. Come on. Seriously, it is obnoxious. I understand you feel you have the truth, but if you want to be effective AND respectful, you need to come to terms with the fact that the majority of people here come from a much different place, a place you claim to have come from, so you should be able to discuss things beginning with "where we are" so to speak rather than this stuff that quite honestly to most of us seems like When Mystics Attack. You know I love you brother, but I see this repeating over and over. I avoid threads that I would love to participate in now because I see you have jumped in once again taking things way off track without trying to discuss things in a way that is actually beneficial and understandable to the audience. I am NOT trying to get you not to participate. I am trying to get you to participate in a more productive way. In all candor George, I am not the only one who now has avoided threads for this reason, and I know you don't want to be that kind of person. I know you don't seek to stop conversation, so honestly, I am really just trying to get you to see that this is not productive and encourage you to try to reach us in conversation meaningfully. Surely it must bother you that so many people come right out and say that they don't want to talk with you any longer because that isn't your intent. I know when I get obnoxious, and I do it on purpose and with the intent and the hope that the silly person on the receiving end decides not to talk with me any longer, but you are not purposefully like that. It is something to see then that more people seem to be avoiding discussing things with you, a gentle person, than with me, who hath the razor tongue.

[Chappie]

So please forgive me...
I am just not the person to ask to silence truth...
Even if I am not persuasive...

Arsenios

Mr. "A", if you would not ask Christ to forgive you for your actions, neither should you ask men. I am, by nature, a tenacious person; I have noticed that I fray the edges of your nerves from time to time. But I will never threaten you with ignoring your posts in a vain attempt to gain the moral high ground.

The Calvinist on this board are organized, they attack by two's. Stand up for what you believe and they will shun you. It use to bother me when they did this to me, but I noticed that in the process there was less of their rhetoric to infiltrate the minds of guests that visit the board that have not been subjected to the intensity of their false rhetoric.

The things that they attribute to God, if they were to attribute them to the Prophet Muhammad, they would have to immediately go into hiding: At a minimum they would not be coddled and called brother by even the moderate Muslim community. Their doctrines have stretched the truth of God into blatant lies, (NOT THEM PERSONALLY) Personally I can see them trying their best to live worthy of the lives that God has given then, personally they are as worthy of the entirety of God's love as any denomination that I am aware of. Doctrinally is where the despicableness comes in...

I am just happy to see someone on this board that values truth over earthly fellowship.

[Chappie]

Really??? So that person CHOSE to be born with a sinful nature (one that does not allow him to obey God)?

Yes, unless you reject original sin, in which we all sinned in Adam. If you reject original sin, you are not orthodox, and I have no desire to converse with heretics.

So "that" person chose to be born with original sin, you respond "YES" as though that person actually had a choice before him. Original sin was imposed by God, not chosen by any man. (Pehaps by Adam)
Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Galatians 3:21-23 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)

Being "under sin" does not in and of itself conclude that we have indeed sinned, under sin simply means that whither you sin or not, God has concluded all men to be "UNDER" the curse/consequence brought on by sin. This opens the way to the promise of faith as the only way to salvation...

We become sinners by sinning.
1.Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 3:22-24 (in Context) Romans 3 (Whole Chapter)

To have chosen sin before birth naturally concludes the pre-existence of the soul and disobedience in the realm of God propper...

[Chappie]

You're no John the Baptist, George. Don't cloak your rudeness in BIble-ese. Repent.

Better to cloak reformed theology within Christianity... The ole pot and the kettle...

[Phat8594]

Yes, unless you reject original sin, in which we all sinned in Adam

??????

Perhaps you can elaborate to me your understanding of original sin....

You are honestly the first person that I have heard claim that people chose to be born with a sinful nature.....

I would greatly appreciate any scriptural support you have for this belief.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

You're no John the Baptist, George. Don't cloak your rudeness in BIble-ese. Repent.

By temperament I am indeed much like him, and perhaps moreso like Elijah... I will not sugar coat the truth so as to feed the demons of "Oh my poor hurt feelings"... When I see EVIL, as I do with the doctrine you espouse, where God is the Author of evil, when God is only Good, and in Him is no darkness at all, I will, like John the Baptist, denounce that evil doctrine... And like him, if it costs me my life, then so be it, Glory to God!

I have been this way all my life - And I have paid some of the dues that such a temperament exacts - Always for what is true, what is good, what matters...

I have never been sorry for the Truth...

I would HOPE that you, if you love Truth, that you STAND in the truth given to you, and not try to hide it behind social correctness...

Truth is far, far too important...

If you want drawing-room Victorian sonata manners to cloak the evil that I see in your doctrines, I am the wrong person to engage - You will do better to ban me from the forum.

Having said that, it really is a small matter, if you do not wish to have me contribute to ['detract from', in your doctrinal understanding] a particular thread, simply ASK... I contribute here to share the Faith given once for ALL to the Apostles, the Apostolic Orthodox Christian Faith... If you wish to have a thread on Calvinist doctrines where this perspective is not desired, just say so... It is as simple as that...

I know you are getting roughed up in these discussions, and that because I do not attack personally, yet I make the arguments personal, and I say what I see, and I speak from the phronema of the Church... And I can see easily the consternation it is causing you, because you like me, and you can see that what I say to you is motivated by love for you, and not malice or a desire to embarrass you or shut you up... I totally regret that I am so sinful that I do not have a better way to present to you the truth that I see, and that you take such great offense and accuse me of rudeness and self-justification in bible-ese...

I identify with MOST of the people I have met in the Bible... And especially with the demoniacs having the demon named "Legion"... I identify with the short tax collector Jesus ate with, who hung out with sinners... I identify with just about every character the Bible presents, except perhaps Judas Iscariot...

John the Theologian was one of the "Sons of Thunder"... He had great boldness before God, and was the Beloved Disciple of our Lord... When the Jews were not receiving Christ as they ought, he asked Jesus: "Should we call down fire upon them Lord?"... He was THAT kind of a person... I identify with him in that recklessness of Spirit... One day, I pray, like Him, I will be given what I need to bring my Calvinist friends... And you are ALL my friends... I will be given, I say, what I need, to bring you all to Christ in doctrines that are holy and good and just, wherein you can stop saying that God is a TOTAL respecter of persons, and predestinates some, no matter what they do, to eternal and unbearable torments... But to his elect, no matter what they do, they are assured that they will live in eternal bliss, and do not have to worry, because he chose them for bliss, and the others for torments... THAT god is not God...

The Un-created and creating God is the Author of only Good, and freedom is Good, and we have freedom, being created in His Image [Eikon]... ONLY created things can author evil... And the choice, to the one or to the other, is yours and mine and every person's on this earth... And upon this earth, evil is a mystery, for by it we either ascend from glory to glory overcoming it, or we descend from darkness to darkness embracing it... The middle ground is absence of knowledge...

So if you do not wish me to post to one if your posts, just say so at the bottom - To make it less obvious, just type in: nfg [not for george] by your signature and I will honor your instruction... But do not ask me to play nice with such an important matter as who God is and what God does... I mean, I still have contact with my friend Nang, whom I loved and love, and with whom I disagreed intensely, for she held this same evil doctrine about God... She knows God... She is just deceived in her doctrines about Him... And you would think that knowing Him, she would not be deceived, but such is not the case... I have had a LOT of deception issues after knowing God, and ESPECIALLY after knowing Him... There is no guartantee even then, you see... Which is why we have the Apostolic Church, and discipleship, and obedience, and the Faith in which we can draw from the Holy Fathers from all the centuries of its glorious history...

This is the witness, the martyric witness, that you scorn, you see... You prefer the witness of the Western Enlightenment, and Luther and Calvin and Zwigli and the non-Roman Catholic Western Fathers... And in this, you cannot help but say that Christ failed, until Luther and the Reformation... If you say that He succeeded gloriously, then you must affirm the times of the Apostolic Church and its extention into all the peoples of the earth until now...

Calling me "selfish" in this affirmation is like calling the disciples of Christ ungodly because they didn't fast... It is a red herring... The truth issues are real, and they are important... You know they are, and all of us know they are... I am a hard person to argue against, I know... But I do not attack you personally, nor will I ever... You are dear to me... Nothing can change that... But truth is truth...

God's Blessings be Upon You...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Mr. "A", if you would not ask Christ to forgive you for your actions, neither should you ask men.

I have found, my Brother, that IF the first two words out of my mouth are "Forgive me...", that my conversations are denied much of their demonic edge... So I ask men to forgive me all the time... And I constantly forgive... Without giving forgiveness, we cannot receive forgiveness, so it seems to work out ok...

I am, by nature, a tenacious person;

You are one of the slyest old foxes I know!

I have noticed that I fray the edges of your nerves from time to time.

We are not here because we agree on everything... But the reverse...

[quote]But I will never threaten you with ignoring your posts in a vain attempt to gain the moral high ground.[quote]

These are good folks who know God, who are far better than the doctrines they have wedded themselves to...

I am just happy to see someone on this board that values truth over earthly fellowship.

Then you should hate me, because if it would help, I would exchange my life for theirs to get them to the truth...

The Witness comes in the quality of the person, you see... And it is in this that I would glorify God...

There is no earthly argument that can persuade someone to the truth, you see...

But only the witness of persons who LIVE the Truth...

As for the Church, the Communion of Truth is a most powerful Witness...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

George that quite rude and arrogant.

Here is what I don't understand George, and why I choose to just maintain light banter with you. You come into these discussions without ever seeking to understand what the original thread starter is saying, only to [sorry this will be blunt] selfishly get on your own soapbox, when it is obvious that most people here have no clue as to what you are saying, something you seem to relish. And whenever you are called on it, you wax long on how the West is all just a bunch of sweaty pagans who can't understand your "pure" path. Come on. Seriously, it is obnoxious. I understand you feel you have the truth, but if you want to be effective AND respectful, you need to come to terms with the fact that the majority of people here come from a much different place, a place you claim to have come from, so you should be able to discuss things beginning with "where we are" so to speak rather than this stuff that quite honestly to most of us seems like When Mystics Attack.

The Orthodox Faith is what is missing everywhere, and especially its grasp of the reason for the incarnation of Christ... Christ did not come primarily to heal us from sin by being punished for the sins we have committed since Adam, but instead He came to take on our human nature to Himself, HOWEVER it is found to be, and to JOIN it with HIS Body... As it happens, Adam did sin, and we in Adam have all sinned, and so he became sin for us, and in Him, this sin, which He did not have, was crucified on the Cross for us... His Body is the Church, and the Church has as its members both those on earth and those in heaven, and it is one Church, worshiping together in every Holy Service...

So that in every discussion, the perspective of this one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church, the Body of Christ, and its witness over 2000 years, is quite simply missing, and when it is brought up, it is dismissed, because WE HAVE THE BIBLE ALONE... [as our God]... And so that is what I have to bring, in this show and tell, and it is all I have to bring, and nothing else do I have...

Most of you here do NOT come from the place I come from... Were you to KNOW the place from which I came forth, you would shriek in horror and run for your lives... Some would... The Genessarenes sure did... They asked Christ to leave - The healing of the demoniac and the evil of his demons into their swine was simply too much for them... I am no better than those demoniacs...

You know I love you brother, but I see this repeating over and over.

I love you too, and if I knew another approach, I would take it, could I be but truthful... But the depths of evil in the doctrine do not seem to permit anything other than renunciation, just as did the unlawful marriage that got John the Baptist beheaded... It really is that bad... And let me repeat, the people who believe it are some of the holiest people on this board... And few of their children are staying in the Church...

I avoid threads that I would love to participate in now because I see you have jumped in once again taking things way off track without trying to discuss things in a way that is actually beneficial and understandable to the audience. I am NOT trying to get you not to participate. I am trying to get you to participate in a more productive way. In all candor George, I am not the only one who now has avoided threads for this reason, and I know you don't want to be that kind of person. I know you don't seek to stop conversation, so honestly, I am really just trying to get you to see that this is not productive and encourage you to try to reach us in conversation meaningfully. Surely it must bother you that so many people come right out and say that they don't want to talk with you any longer because that isn't your intent.

Remember Kennite? He was here pounding on the Latins without mercy... And rightfully so in much of his posting... And my question to him became exactly this: "It is not enough that your attacks be true, but they need also to be kind, and bring healing..." And he departed after some time... I think he is back under another name, and is a much kinder and more helpful person now... I pray that he is... He is an ex-Latin Catholic, who was, I think, betrayed by that Church somehow... But I do not know...

And here, I am not attacking anyone, but simply make the case as airtight as I can, and you are right, it seems, for folks like yourself drop off, and do not wish to participate... Although for YOU, my dear friend, you pretty much held back for the first couple of years I came on board here, and since then too... We never did have any long exchanges... Yet you followed my postings, I know... And my witness is simple, straightforward and true... It is not scholarly, does not cite extensive commentaries that agree with me, nor is it definitional particularly... I simply take a person at their word, and answer them in those terms... Sola-Scriptura? Fine! We can do Scripture... But then, I go to the Patristic commentaries for their interpretation, and a strict literal rendering of the text, utilizing the Greek text, and we can then follow the nuances of the text, and I get criticized for "over-translating" and having to make everything in the text make sense... Lord have Mercy!

And it always bugged me how the Sola Scriptura-ites almost never learn Greek... Yet the Greek is no guarantee - There are lots of Greek scholastic types who have their own pet theories, and are JW's, and Charismatics, and all manner of deviations from the Patristic understanding...

I know when I get obnoxious, and I do it on purpose and with the intent and the hope that the silly person on the receiving end decides not to talk with me any longer, but you are not purposefully like that.

Thank-you - I am not there to shut anyone up, but to help them understand what I see them as not understanding...

YOU, otoh, are a Terror-to-Behold! Your avatar flashing steel and flesh, and slicing and dicing your opposition into small, inedible bits... Not for the faint of heart, you know...

It is something to see then that more people seem to be avoiding discussing things with you, a gentle person, than with me, who hath the razor tongue.

You might want to pray on that fact... I mean, on the one hand, you are much more approachable, and have more of an exalted status, being one of the founders of the forum here, so everyone wants a piece of you, and it is easy to get pulled in many directions, and there is only so much of you to go around... I, otoh, am dead serious in caring for those with whom I speak, and care about them absolutely, and address the issues AS they present them... So that with you, there is the glamour, if you will, whereas with me, there is a personal focus through the discussion that is hard for some to abide... I tend to address the person through the issues presented, and for some, this makes the discussion too personal... The issues themselves, you see, for me at least, mean very little in themselves, but only have value insofar as they relate to helping a person in, or keeping a person from, drawing near to God...

The scholastic and rationalist exegetical mindset, which dissects Scripture into small mouth-sized bites, and then tries to formulate doctrine from such dissections, following the western Enlightenment that worked so well for the Industrial Revolution and the advancement of Science against the Dark Ages of western European Culture, are simply NOT the tools that lead to God, not to understanding God... The understanding of God is GIVEN by God to a person whose soul is purified in repentance and whose heart is broken, who knows that he or she cannot understand anything... And this purification is what is discipled in the Body of Christ by the Servants of Christ... Theological knowledge is NOT a product of intellectual discernment from the prayerful reading of the text of the Bible, but is a gift of God to a person purged of sin in repentance in poverty of spirit and approaching despair...

This, you see, is why I keep going back to the Holy Fathers, who understood and understand it, who have walked that talk, and can guide others along those hard and straited pathways... For such a walk is heroic and worthwhile, wherein one attains self-knowledge and the virtues of dealing with the self one is denying in that walk dispassionately... It is a journey that ends it tribulation in God's peace, until we leave this earth... Children need this great a challenge to keep with a walk that brings trials and sorrows and heartache... They cannot be told that some are predestined to heaven, and the rest to hell, because it is not true... ANYone who turns to God will NOT be denied Him... Or BY Him... To simply KNOW that we do not BELONG on this earth, that we are but here for a short time, and will soon leave, and that the suffering of this world are nothing, nor its joys, brings unimaginable freedom, because then you can follow God in suffering for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven, and in that holy Love, find the Joy that such a walk receives from Him...

It is in this that we find our salvation, which is our walk in the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, which is the Body of Christ, the Apostolic Church...

That is what is missing on your side of the aisle...

This is not a rationally derived Faith based on written texts...

It IS a dogmatic Faith based on Revelation...

God bless you, Dee Dee...

You are and shall remain my Fearsome Champion!


Arsenios

[Oliver128]

I Oliver128 am a heretic - better to be a heretic then to 'lie' my way through the N T - I do not subscribe to the 'verbal plenary inspiration' of the N T - on the otherhand I believe that the Holy Spirit can take those very words and convict and convince sinners unto salvation - it is His power that propels the Gospel.

Predestination to Life - I believe it - but not as a Calvinist believes it - for my God did not arbitraily select souls to be saved - my God used foreknowledge wisdom and understanding - certainly only those who are predestined to Life 'will' be saved - that is clear John 3:16-18 + 36.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world so that He might condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; and he who does not believe the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

When did God predestinate the fate of man - before He had created anything or anyone - before anyone had done any 'good or evil' - man's sinful state certainly condemns man to God's wrath - but more importantly it is what the sinner does with Jesus Christ the determines where he will spend eternity - man's sinful state did not exist when God predestinated the fate of man - God made His election before man had sinned therefore man's sinful state had no bearing on God's election - so on what basis did God make His election - the Calvinist is 'stuck' with the luck of the draw - a lottery at best - a dot board at worse - I say He determined His election on the foreknowledge of what the sinner does with Jesus Christ - that's how it is spelled out in John 3.

[RBerman]

God made His election before man had sinned therefore man's sinful state had no bearing on God's election - so on what basis did God make His election - the Calvinist is 'stuck' with the luck of the draw - a lottery at best - a dot board at worse - I say He determined His election on the foreknowledge of what the sinner does with Jesus Christ - that's how it is spelled out in John 3.

God makes his election based on his eternal and perfect plan. It's not a "dot board" or lottery just because he hasn't told you what his plan is.

[Oliver128]

God makes his election based on his eternal and perfect plan. It's not a "dot board" or lottery just because he hasn't told you what his plan is.

Sooo - 'you', speaking as a Calvinist, would 'agree' with 'me', a heretic, that God had (has) a reason or reasons for what He 'wills' - that His choice of certain people was 'reasonable' and not arbitrary - not just because He IS God Almighty so who can oppose or resist Him (my God is no 'bully') but because He IS God Almighty and is able to be Just and Merciful and therefore trustworthy.

[Phat8594]

that His choice of certain people was 'reasonable' and not arbitrary

the problem you will run into is to show how your judgement of what is reasonable is more reasonable that what God did.



In other words:

If God decided to unconditionally predestinate a particular people to salvation

and

If God is reasonable an just in all He does,

Then God's decision to unconditionally predestinate a particular people to salvation is reasonable and just

[Chappie]

God makes his election based on his eternal and perfect plan. It's not a "dot board" or lottery just because he hasn't told you what his plan is.

Does not matter what his plan is, the question is; what makes you more suited to his plan than the next guy. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God: Out of a sea of sinners, what difference (merit) did he envision in you that was absent in those not chosen... Without a passage that states your position, you need to answer this conundrum...

No matter what the plan is; a plan stands within the borders of criteria, criteria that logically must be present in that which is chosen to fulfill the plan. And criteria is what you must deny exist in order to make your scenario work. Without criteria, just saying it is not a dot board is tantamount to walking out into a rain storm and proclaiming, "It is not raining".