salvation and choice

[Chappie]

My Brother, the proof of faith is in it's being lived...

It does not consist in fallen human rationality - The Greeks in 500BC took that as far as it could go...

Sorry I lost you, Chappie - You want logical proofs, and I desire God...

May you find the logic you need...

Arsenios

As the author of any statements that erroneously led you to that conclusion, I would ask, "Do you think that you desire God anymore than I, {If yes, then based on what?} and do you think that you can seek him from an illogical position and yet find him...? More accurately and to the point, better to say that I desire systematic proofs rather than ramblings and illogical attempts to inseart myself into the scriptures as though I thought that I could improve what the writers stated.

I do think that your communitarian took on a problem that could be solved by walking a mile, but he chose to walk 10: 1 mile of substance, 9 miles of babbling. With scripture we should keep our conclusion short and to the point, by such we curtail the pride of overkill.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Hi Bro Geo,

This addresses the issue of those wrongly taught and who later learn well:

George wrote:


What of the wrongly taught who continue in error? Will they suffer loss like the one who had charge of their souls?

S

Obedience is the treasury... There is salvation in it, if it is in humility... Sometimes, people become obedient so as to have power over others, and their obedience becomes a mockery of humility...

Wrong teachings in the Church fall by the wayside... Because there is the core of Patristic teaching that corrects them... Putside the Church, they only keep on multiplying... Obedience in humility of soul will find salvation, unless, of course, it is obedience to great sins... And yet, even then, the Wise Thief found salvation... That is God's call, you see, and not ours to speculate upon...

Keep in mind that in civil law, ignorance of the rules is no defense: (IOW, "I never knew I had to pay tax!" will not hold water in a court of law!)...

Thank God the Faith is not a civil lawyer!

What is crucial is the ontological condition of the heart, and this condition is the focus of the Faith...

Arsenios

[footwasher]

S

Obedience is the treasury... There is salvation in it, if it is in humility... Sometimes, people become obedient so as to have power over others, and their obedience becomes a mockery of humility...

Wrong teachings in the Church fall by the wayside... Because there is the core of Patristic teaching that corrects them... Putside the Church, they only keep on multiplying... Obedience in humility of soul will find salvation, unless, of course, it is obedience to great sins... And yet, even then, the Wise Thief found salvation... That is God's call, you see, and not ours to speculate upon...



Thank God the Faith is not a civil lawyer!

What is crucial is the ontological condition of the heart, and this condition is the focus of the Faith...

Arsenios

7“Now as for you, son of man, I have appointed you a watchman for the house of Israel; so you will hear a message from My mouth and give them warning from Me. 8“When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand. 9“But if you on your part warn a wicked man to turn from his way and he does not turn from his way, he will die in his iniquity, but you have delivered your life. Eze 33

[Nicholas Potts]

To exegete for you the whole chapter of John 6 would take considerable time and definately require a new thread to do so. So can you post for me what passages say "calvinism" is true for me... Then I will do my best to respond.

yeah, not a problem. specifically verses 29, 37-44, and 65 should suffice! Thank you!

[Nicholas Potts]

Oliver. Thank you with your synopsis John 6! I do have a quick question for you though. You compared John 6:44 with John 12:32 which says that God draws all people to himself. Are you assuming this is every "individual" or every "type" because neither term appears in the text. Which is it from your point of view?

because it seems to me that if it were each individual...let us note the result of the drawing, they will be raised up on the last day and have eternal life (verses 40 and 44)....if this were the case, wouldn't that lead to universalism since all who are drawn are raised up on the last day? Just curious.

[Chappie]

Oliver. Thank you with your synopsis John 6! I do have a quick question for you though. You compared John 6:44 with John 12:32 which says that God draws all people to himself. Are you assuming this is every "individual" or every "type" because neither term appears in the text. Which is it from your point of view?

because it seems to me that if it were each individual...let us note the result of the drawing, they will be raised up on the last day and have eternal life (verses 40 and 44)....if this were the case, wouldn't that lead to universalism since all who are drawn are raised up on the last day? Just curious.

Hope you do not mind...
John 6:44:No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If you are open to taking notice, you will see that the passage predicates what a person can/cannot do as opposed to what he will do. Key to correctly exegeting this passage is the phrase "can come".
What are the implications of the word "can" as it is used here?
CanStrongs Deffinition:
1) to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and
resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable
circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
2) to be able to do something
3) to be capable, strong and powerful.

Without the Fathers favorable drawing/provocation, no man has the power to come to him. Man cannot come monergistically, only synergistically is a valid opportunity presented through which man will have the ability to come to God... Obviously we are not talking about man being dragged by God monergistically because it speaks of what man can and cannot do. Noteworthy here also is the concept of "will come" is not presented in this passage. Can do is the context, not what he will do...

In verse 6:45, the context of what is being taught is changed from "can come and drawing" to the ramifications of being "taught by God."6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. "Heard and learned" are the prerequisites for "coming to The father,” not being drawn. The possibility to do so is established in the drawing. The act of coming is predicated upon hearing and learning. So it is incorrect to conclude that every man that is drawn will come. Ergo, it is incorrect to conclude that John 12:32 naturally points to universalism. 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Not if I be lifted up, I will drag all men to me...
I know that the biblical word for draw can be interpreted as drag also, but the interpreters of the bible, (After much consideration and evaluation I’m sure) chose to interpret it as the English word "draw", not drag.

Verse 6:44 is in the context of a direct revelation from Jesus Christ, what is revealed in 6:45 is a revelation from one of the Prophets as evidenced by the phrase "It is written"; which does not precede verse 44.

Verse 6:44 presents to us the necessity of a synergistic effort by both man and God before one can believe/come to Christ who is the author and finisher of our salvation. It speaks of what man cannot do without assistance from God, not what he will do. Upon feeling the provocation from God, man must come to god. "Come", a volitional act that cannot be placed into the context of being dragged: An application of irresistible force is not within the context of 6:44

[Chappie]

yeah, not a problem. specifically verses 29, 37-44, and 65 should suffice! Thank you!

Take a look at this debate...
http://www.ilovejesus.com/missions/s.../index10.shtml

[Rdr. Arsenios]

I know that the biblical word for draw can be interpreted as drag also, but the interpreters of the bible, (After much consideration and evaluation I’m sure) chose to interpret it as the English word "draw", not drag.

The DRAG part comes later, at the last judgement, where the souls steeped in the ontology of turning away from God according to their evil ways will be brought forcibly into His presence with the effect of burning them in their lawlessness and love of evil... But for the present Age in these last times, ALL ARE DRAWN with Christ's being "raised up" from the earth upon the wood of the tree made into a Cross of His Crucifixion...

This exegesis would very much disprove that only the elect are drawn... ALL are drawn... Not by the Father, but by Christ... But the caveat here is that Christ IS the Father of mankind... He IS our God... In Him we are birthed anew from above...

John 6:44:
"No man is able to be coming to Me,
unless the Father which hath sent Me is drawing him:
and I will raise him up at the last day."

This must be interpreted according to John 12:32
"And I, if I should be lifted up from the earth, will be drawing all men unto Me."

The first is pre-crucifixion, the second is post-crucifixion...

ALL men are being drawn now... Because Christ HAS BEEN "lifted up", yes?

Arsenios

[RBerman]

What's your own position on these matters, Mr. Potts?

[Oliver128]

Oliver. Thank you with your synopsis John 6! I do have a quick question for you though. You compared John 6:44 with John 12:32 which says that God draws all people to himself. Are you assuming this is every "individual" or every "type" because neither term appears in the text. Which is it from your point of view?

because it seems to me that if it were each individual...let us note the result of the drawing, they will be raised up on the last day and have eternal life (verses 40 and 44)....if this were the case, wouldn't that lead to universalism since all who are drawn are raised up on the last day? Just curious.

John 12:32 καγω εαν υψωθω εκ της γης παντας ελκυσω προς εμαυτον

John 12:32 And I, in the event I am exalted out from the ground, I will draw every one in company with myself

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw [or, drag] all to Myself. [ALT]
John 12:32 and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself. [YLT]
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself. [LITV]

I have included the ‘text’ – my own translation – and 3 other ‘literal’ translations – for your edification.

I think there is a modicum of both aspects in the phraseology of this verse, which I tried to bring out in my translation – I ‘see’ ελκυσω leaning more toward the ‘individual’ but the presence of προς pulling back toward the ‘collective’ – so I think I’m saying I see a group of select individuals portrayed here.

Peace & Love

[Chappie]

John 12:32 καγω εαν υψωθω εκ της γης παντας ελκυσω προς εμαυτον

John 12:32 And I, in the event I am exalted out from the ground, I will draw every one in company with myself

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw [or, drag] all to Myself. [ALT]
John 12:32 and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself. [YLT]
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself. [LITV]

I have included the ‘text’ – my own translation – and 3 other ‘literal’ translations – for your edification.

I think there is a modicum of both aspects in the phraseology of this verse, which I tried to bring out in my translation – I ‘see’ ελκυσω leaning more toward the ‘individual’ but the presence of προς pulling back toward the ‘collective’ – so I think I’m saying I see a group of select individuals portrayed here.

Peace & Love

Ambigeous and confusing to my small mind...

[Oliver128]

Hello Chappie,

The word elkuso has two ‘slants’ associated with it: ‘all – individually’ or ‘all – collectively’ context is the deciding factor – but in this case the immediate context is fuzzy as to what Jesus is referring to except that of His death and resurrection – but it is a mistake to consider a verse outside of its context – so it is necessary to broaden the context going backwards even to the very first verse if need be – for this verse is not written in a vacuum but is part of the whole that extends from John 1:1 – so where before 12:32 is the word ‘draw’ used in similar manner to 12:32 and to what does it refer – this is the context to which we must apply the word ‘all’ – to ‘all’ those who were ‘drawn’ in 6:44 – now I mentioned pros and I refer to its usage in 1:1b where ‘o logos is ‘in company with’ God – I believe this to be the meaning John was implying in 12:32. I hope that is of some assistance.

Peace & Love

[Chappie]

Hello Chappie,

The word elkuso has two ‘slants’ associated with it: ‘all – individually’ or ‘all – collectively’ context is the deciding factor – but in this case the immediate context is fuzzy as to what Jesus is referring to except that of His death and resurrection – but it is a mistake to consider a verse outside of its context – so it is necessary to broaden the context going backwards even to the very first verse if need be – for this verse is not written in a vacuum but is part of the whole that extends from John 1:1 – so where before 12:32 is the word ‘draw’ used in similar manner to 12:32 and to what does it refer – this is the context to which we must apply the word ‘all’ – to ‘all’ those who were ‘drawn’ in 6:44 – now I mentioned pros and I refer to its usage in 1:1b where ‘o logos is ‘in company with’ God – I believe this to be the meaning John was implying in 12:32. I hope that is of some assistance.

Peace & Love

Normally I am able to understand most posts well enough to agree/disagree, must admit, here I'm drawing a com[plete blank... Please paraphrase 12:32 in the manner that you perceive it should be translated/understood...
Thank you...
~El Chappito~

[Nicholas Potts]

Hmm. I liked what you were saying up until you said,

are the prerequisites for "coming to The father,” not being drawn.

Reason being, it is not us coming to the Father...but rather coming to the Son. I understand this may be nit picking, but note a key thing here. In the preceding verses it states that we were the Father's already, and the Father gives us to the Son. So, whether if we hear and learn are not requisites for us going to the Father, rather we are already the Father's and because we are the Father's we will hear and learn, and seemingly validates monergism because we were the Father's and then we will be given to the Son, and thus, the final result of all of those given to the Son will be raised up on the last day. I don't see a synergistic account here....maybe you could better explain it if I seem confused. As for the term drag, I would say that the term draw is proper as well, but we must not conclude that it means to "woo" either, but rather as one draws water...that water does not have a will to go toward the drawer but rather the one that draws overrides the will of the one it draws. At least...that's how it appears to me lol.

The Calvinist does not deny that faith is involved, rather, the Calvinist says our volition comes after we have been regenerated. We do not will to be regenerated because we hate God (thus we "can not" come to Him, but the qualifier is God's drawing us in an effective way that sends us to the Son; those the Father give to the Son will go to Him and those whom the Son receives from the Father will be raised up on the last day).

[Nicholas Potts]

George,

it seems that you assume "all" means "all individuasl."

Can you prove your assumption?