salvation and choice

[Nicholas Potts]

RBerman,

I am a Calvinist.

[Nicholas Potts]

Oliver,

So would you say that you take the Calvinist perspective that God draws a group of individuals (as the Calvinist calls, "the elect")? Because Calvinists believe that God draws individuals, but not every individual but rather every type of individual.

Though, Oliver, not to be disrespectful but you did not answer both my questions. I did specifically ask,

wouldn't that lead to universalism since all who are drawn are raised up on the last day?

which you did not answer. The resultant of the giving to the Son is being raised up...but if all individuals are given...wouldn't this result in universalism?

[Rdr. Arsenios]

George,

it seems that you assume "all" means "all individuasl."

Can you prove your assumption?

I have not looked at any of the Patristic commentary on this one yet,
but MY take, fwiw, [and it ain't worth much], is that it means all creation...

On the one hand, if He is lifted up upon the Cross, He will raise fallen Adam,
And this in the atoning sacrifice He alone can give, for He is the only sinless one,
And on the other hand, if He is raised up to heaven, He will as well raise all creation...

There is even another view, where if He is raised up [exalted] above the earth of our hearts,
He will draw all those who so lift Him up in themselves -
And this is the good moist earth that yields a hundred-fold...

I think all are true... The drawing is not a dragging, unless you pay attention...
And if you do, it is compelling... IF.... Our God is an Awesome God!
But He is not an in your face God... He CAN and HAS made forced corrections...
I am thinking of Jonah, who just decided to bag the whole thing and not to turn to sins,
mind you, but just to go his own way, because things were too hard... But that is
only for those who are Prophets, perhaps... The rest of us are not such friends of God...

But it is the drawing of all... Of all manner of men, and of all creation...
For the Crucifixion and the Resurrection of our Lord was for the RESTORATION of the FALL...
And in the Fall, Adam fell, and we in him, but as well, ALL CREATION fell with Adam...
So that in our present condition, we are utterly clueless about the kind of life and the kind of creation
in which Adam and Eve lived in the Garden...
We do not know the kind of cognition he had, or his relationship with a creation we have never seen...
Those who have attained the vision of the restoration, such as Paul, ascending to the 3rd heaven,
report that things are seen there of which it is unlawful to speak...

We err greatly when we presume that our fallen human rationality
can discern from written words such truths as a restored and healthy human nature,
And a creation that is as it was...

Yet Christian Saints have tamed wild beasts, and quenched fires, and stopped the waves...
For they are living in that world while in this one...

So the drawing may be likened to a magnetic pull, there for everyone, but open only to those who
have "not received their souls in vain", but who care about truth and love at the expense of self...
Such as these God will gather, and He knows who they are...

The Orthodox like the antimony of saying on the one hand:
"Man is totally responsible for his salvation or condemnation..."
and on the other hand:
"God alone saves or condemns..."

In this fallen world of good AND evil, we are FREE to chose EITHER...
Most of us are mixed bags...
The Saints overcome all manner of evils...
The sinners overcome all manner of good...
But the draw, following Christ's being "uplifted from the earth"
Is for all, and each responds according as he will...
Some unto sainthood and salvation...
Some unto demonic powers and damnation...

On this earth, as a fallen person, in a fallen creation,
WE have been given this freedom to choose by God,
The very God who created us in His image...

In the age to come, that freedom will be gone...
We will be free from evil temptations...
Or not, in the case of those who have embraced evils...
It's YOUR call, for God wills ALL to be saved...
Yet broad is the way to destruction...

Arsenios

PS - I would like to add - I have known many criminals, and I have yet to meet any who are not spiritual, whom God has not drawn, and from Whom they have not turned away... I myself was an atheist for my first 36 years, and had no draw at all that was identifiable as from God in all that time, and I did pray and ask... But when God did come, there was no question in me as to Who He was, and how everything changed... Yet I did not follow any kind of self-condemning path, but held ruthlessly to a love of truth in a quest for self-healing for those 36 years, and when God did come, I had a pretty cleaned out soul, and the "earth" of my core was soft and well moistened with tears... Yet outwardly, anyone, including myself, would have had to say that I was utterly lost in darkness those years... Inwardly, however, I continued the quest without regard to externals, and in the failure of it, I found God, who found me who did not believe in Him... "I will be found by those not looking for me..." [Isaiah]

Being drawn is there for all since Christ, and for those who commit themselves to evils, it is even more-so, and they have to work hard to resist that draw, and they do, and they succeed, but you cannot tell the inside from the outside always... And there is always hope for the sinner in our prayers for him or her...

[Chappie]

RBerman,

I am a Calvinist.

Christ will forgive you...

[Fortoggie]

Just some thoughts; we really have fewer choices in life than we think. We do not choose our parents, generally we do not choose where we grow up. When it gets right down to it, we don't have much choice in where we go to college or even who we marry nor do we have much choice in our children are how they will turn out.
This may not help answer the theological question, listed above but it at least should give some pause to those who think that they make all the decisions and that they are where they are because of those decisions.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

RBerman,

I am a Calvinist.

Christ will forgive you...

God forgives all...

Arsenios

[Xru]

Is this one of Theological discussion that have no practical implications at all. Or are you'll arguing just for the fun of it again?

[Chappie]

Is this one of Theological discussion that have no practical implications at all. Or are you'll arguing just for the fun of it again?

What are the practical implications of your question?
1.Ecclesiastes 1:9
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 1:8-10 (in Context) Ecclesiastes 1 (Whole Chapter)

.1 John 2:7
Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
1 John 2:6-8 (in Context) 1 John 2 (Whole Chapter)

[Xru]

k

[Nicholas Potts]

Christ will forgive you...

why? This is the Biblical position lol. :P

[Nicholas Potts]

George,

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but you did not answer my question. Can you account "all" means "all individuals?" You only assumed it and built upon that. Can you account that "all" means "all individuals?"

[Oliver128]

Oliver,

So would you say that you take the Calvinist perspective that God draws a group of individuals (as the Calvinist calls, "the elect")? Because Calvinists believe that God draws individuals, but not every individual but rather every type of individual.

Though, Oliver, not to be disrespectful but you did not answer both my questions. I did specifically ask, which you did not answer. The resultant of the giving to the Son is being raised up...but if all individuals are given...wouldn't this result in universalism?

I'm not certain what is meant by every 'type' of individual - I believe God draws the individuals He predestined to Life - but I am not a 5 point Calvinist neither am I a 5 point Arminianist - I label myself a Libertarian for I believe in Free Will (to a degree) and Conditional Election (as defined in the Gospel of John) or so I think it is anyway. I believe there are aspects of 'universalism' in John but they do not lead to universal election or predestination.

[Oliver128]

I believe John 12:32 is speaking of the resurrection in the last day of 'all' those brought to the Son through the ministry of the Holy Spirit at the direction of the Father. I think the use of pros makes me think in this direction for those He draws will be in company with Him. John 6:44 is talking about the drawing to the Son by the ministry of the Holy Spirit of those who have been predestined to Life by the Father. This is the salvation experience - John 12:32 is the resurrection experience. IMO.

[RBerman]

Is this one of Theological discussion that have no practical implications at all. Or are you'll arguing just for the fun of it again?

95% of the posts on this website fall under the category of "arguing for the fun of it."

[Chappie]

95% of the posts on this website fall under the category of "arguing for the fun of it."

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