Originally posted by Bill the Cat
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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What to expect from God and Apostasy
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostIts fairly simple, if he later repents, then he didn't cross the line and did the unforgivable sin.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by 37818 View Post,
". . . But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." -- Hebrews 10:39.
It seems to me you'd be forced to say that whoever wrote Hebrews got it wrong.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostYou'd still have to explain Hebrews 6:4. You can either claim that those it describes never tasted the graces to begin with, or you can say that it describes an impossible scenario. Yet how would you do that in the context of the rest of the epistle.
It seems to me you'd be forced to say that whoever wrote Hebrews got it wrong.
However we end up interpreting it (and I have my view), I think the conclusion that anybody who repents is not described here is correct, else John 6:37 would be wrong."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThen it wouldn't be apostasy.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThe church has struggled with this passage throughout history. "Enlightenment" as used in Hebrews 6:4 later took on the objective meaning of "baptism", so by the 3rd or 4th century, the church read this definition back into it and took it to mean that you could not be baptized a second time. The problem is this is clearly not what the author of Hebrews meant, as the word wasn't used in that way when it was written, and it has nothing to do with the context of the book.
However we end up interpreting it (and I have my view), I think the conclusion that anybody who repents is not described here is correct, else John 6:37 would be wrong.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostI understand apostasy to be abandonment of a particular system of belief, not abandoning faith in Christ.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostDo you have some sort of proof for your last sentence here? Because I think you're over-simplifying how the church read this passage. And I'll note that, while the church does not allow rebaptism, it does allow for people to fall away and subsequently repent.
I'm not seeing that.
I don't see how John 6:37 is inapplicable, as it suggests that Jesus would never turn away a would-be disciple this side of the eschaton, even if they were a prior apostate.Last edited by KingsGambit; 12-22-2014, 07:51 PM."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Addendum: There are all kinds of convoluted explanations to argue why Paul's prayer to reclaim Hymenaeus was not an example of apostasy or why the last two verses of James don't describe apostasy, to preserve a clean theology of "you can't recover from apostasy but if they recover, it's not really apostasy." That doesn't seem to do justice to the biblical authors."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI actually went through my seminary's library a couple weeks ago and looked at how most all scholarly commentaries approached Hebrews and the near-unanimous consensus was that it was a five-part warning series (the five warnings are clearly interrelated) against allowing any repentance at all. The reference to Esau in Hebrews 12 is a descriptor of one who wants to repent but is actively not allowed to. (The church has tried to find ways out of this for the last 2000 years; I think the only intellectually honest way not to turn it into a prooftext for Novatianism is to allow for rhetoric/hyperbole.)
I don't see how John 6:37 is inapplicable, as it suggests that Jesus would never turn away a would-be disciple this side of the eschaton, even if they were a prior apostate.
Though I'd still add the addendum that the person would have to have supernatural contrition. (I'm not sure unrependant sinners would ever get that if they died in that state)
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWe can play scripture wars all day long -- "backsliding" is actually mentioned in the Bible a number of times.
Are you comfortable judging when a Christian has gone past "backsliding" and is an "apostate"?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostI am of the the persuasion that "backsliding" does not Biblically apply to Christians. Yes, I am well aware that most Christians think otherwise. Based on the majority usage I would be in the wrong. First, my understanding, of the Biblical usage, was to the nation of Israel. And when applied to individuals, it was because they were not yet saved. Can you give me one example from the Bible where this assessment is not true.
It is my view genuine Christians do neither. Religious and lost professing to be Christians do. Show me one example from the word of God where I am wrong about this. This does not mean everyone is going to agree. But we need to make the case, none the less."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostYou'd still have to explain Hebrews 6:4. You can either claim that those it describes never tasted the graces to begin with, or you can say that it describes an impossible scenario. Yet how would you do that in the context of the rest of the epistle.
It seems to me you'd be forced to say that whoever wrote Hebrews got it wrong.
Consider the following ". . . They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted [thereof], he would not drink. . . ." -- Matthew 27:34.
While there is a difference in grammar, it is the same word, accusative in the plural in Hebrews 6:4 and nominative in the singular in Matthew 27:34. (Hebrew 6:4 is not talking about any one individual. ". . . those . . .")
But the writer goes on to say, ". . . But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." (v.9) What was spoken of was of "those" who do not obtain salvation. Christ died for all (John 15:2, 6).. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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