Vatican Speaks Against the Pro Death Commandos

[Jack777]

The Pro Death Commandos, you know people from hell with a pneumbra here and there to justify abortion and the like, well, they are at it again as most know.

The Vatican has decided to speak against the Pro Death Commandos in Florida.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nat...wsnation-front

[Rahab]

The Pro Death Commandos, you know people from hell with a pneumbra here and there to justify abortion and the like, well, they are at it again as most know.

The Vatican has decided to speak against the Pro Death Commandos in Florida.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nat...wsnation-front

Bonjour Jack. I do not know the position of the RCC for Living Wills. I will assume that if Terri had established a Living Will specifying which forms of medical treaments and interventions she wishes to be witheld, the RCC would not consider the execution of a Living Will as euthanasia. What is your take on that?

Currently and IMO Terri's case is close to being euthanasia because there is no legal document left by Terri specifying her medical will. She is to be considered as a passive element in the decision process.A second party, her husband appointed as her legal custodian is the active element promoting her supposed will to die.

I want to make sure that everyone realizes that there is a difference between a patient who is the active element in the decision process of witholding or withdrawing life support devices and a patient who is passive. If I advocate the right to choose how to die for mentaly competent terminal patients who necessitate extreme measures of palliative care, I certainly do not for non terminal passive patients who left no Living Will and whose "choice to how and when to die" remains in the domaine of assumptions.

[Jack777]

Bonjour!

I love the French. Seriously.

Anyway, I am not part of the RCC and hope they would have a stand on Living Wills that honors life. I do not know. The decision to end life is at the least serious. I have Fibromyalgia and at one point my Dr thought I had MS. I don't know if you know about FMS, but it is not fun. I think that under certain circumstances people can be active in decision making in a legal sense while not making the same decision they might could they see the future. In other words, even an active decision maker, the "patient" could make decisions based on conditions at the moment that later they would not have made. Consider clinical depression and decision making under that pathology and someone who no longer suffers depression due to serotonin re-uptake. Same person, two radically different decisions make be elicited from them even though legally active in the decision making process.

In Terri's case, the case for ending her life is not there at all as passive or active. One thing that we know is that jurisprudence under English Common Law and under that of the US is based on precedent. Our ability to make unwise decisions and set precedents goes with the territory, to be sure. However, this is an especially egregious violation of so many principles, medical and legal for the sake of the politics of the "rights" of people (and a narrowly defined small minority group) under non-standard conditions I wonder about the sanity of the people involved pushing to kill Terri. In my opinion, this case is such that it is in effect opening up Pandora's Box.

[Rahab]

Bonjour!

I love the French. Seriously.

Anyway, I am not part of the RCC and hope they would have a stand on Living Wills that honors life. I do not know. The decision to end life is at the least serious. I have Fibromyalgia and at one point my Dr thought I had MS. I don't know if you know about FMS, but it is not fun. I think that under certain circumstances people can be active in decision making in a legal sense while not making the same decision they might could they see the future. In other words, even an active decision maker, the "patient" could make decisions based on conditions at the moment that later they would not have made. Consider clinical depression and decision making under that pathology and someone who no longer suffers depression due to serotonin re-uptake. Same person, two radically different decisions make be elicited from them even though legally active in the decision making process. .

Bonjour Jack,

I cannot agree more with you. I consider that active patients' decisions do need to be evaluated at the psychiatric level. Intensive counseling is necessary as well as thorough detailed medical information. And even as Terri MAY have expressed verbaly her wish to not be maintained on any life support devices at some point of time prior to her cardiac failure, none of those measures I strongly recommend she benefited of. I am somewhat familiar with FMS and I know it implies chronical pain. As an aside, have you considered consulting alternative medecine specialists? (such as holistic medecine.)

The most compelling case I know of a Living Will decision process concerned an ex ALS patient of mine. His choice was to request that no respiratory support be provided at the time his diaphragm would cease to function. Meaning death by suffocation. More specificaly bouts of suffocation with intermittent respiratory function.However, he documented himself on the progressive symptoms of ALS and explored all alternatives available. His decision was maturely pondered over. I had no doubt he considered the agonizing effects of his choice. Which he considered to be a lesser agony than the psychological agony of being maintained on full life support while his mind retains full awareness of his entire condition.If he was allowed legaly to choose when to die, he certainly could not choose any medicaly assisted method of how to die to avoid any agonizing process.

That is where I am disturbed by the absence of special clauses in Living Wills allowing for medicaly assisted methods of "how to die". And the issue is complicated by the implications of any assisted suicide where physicians become the element who would assist a patient in inducing his/her own death.

In Terri's case, the case for ending her life is not there at all as passive or active. One thing that we know is that jurisprudence under English Common Law and under that of the US is based on precedent. Our ability to make unwise decisions and set precedents goes with the territory, to be sure. However, this is an especially egregious violation of so many principles, medical and legal for the sake of the politics of the "rights" of people (and a narrowly defined small minority group) under non-standard conditions I wonder about the sanity of the people involved pushing to kill Terri. In my opinion, this case is such that it is in effect opening up Pandora's Box.

I considered Terri as being "passive" in the sense that so far only the assumption of what her will is has been the support to her "rights to die". We have no clear and uncontestable evidence that her will is as it was promoted by Mr Schiavo and certainly no means to recieve any confirmation from her as an "active" patient. The assuming aspect of the "right to die" in Terri's case is what is most disturbing to me. IMO it does open the "Pandora Box" of judiciary decisions based on mere suspicion rather than probable cause presented arguments. It also challenges principles of not rendering a verdict if any doubt subsides.
More than their sanity, I am questionning the compromising position of the court. The dangerous precedent which may be set is an increase of petitions from custodians of severaly mentaly disabled individuals seeking the same legal approval Mr Schiavo is recieving. The dismissing attitude of the court so far in terms of placing the custodian's medical choices under scrutiny to establish if indeed he has fulfilled the obligation of keeping the best interest of Terri as his primary focus, is a "red flag". Unscrupulous custodians/caregivers would be invited to dispose of an unconvenient disabled individual as they can see such a dismissing process in Terri's case. The level of accountablity of the custodian has been seriously demeaned. In fact, I do not see much desire to hold Mr Schiavo accountable.

In my job I have seen a few cases of disabled seniors surrendering medical custody to their family member. I could observe being assigned to them in their home that the caregiver was in fact neglicting the patient. Yet, the legality of the medical power given to the custodian prevailed over the observed character of the custodian. Not much scrutiny is applied to such appointed custodian as the legal document is drawn.

Some of those seniors are pressured by a family member to surrender their medical choices. They are very vulnerable to such pressure. One particular case of a COPD senior caught my attention as her daughter had influenced her to surrender all medical choices. This poor woman would verbalize to me and other nurses that she wanted to be placed in a nursing home rather than be kept in her daughter's home. I was aware as to why having observed the dysfunctional behavior of her daughter and her inability to provide adequate care to her needy mother. The perspective of benefiting of her SS check as she kept her home was the primary motivation. There was overwhelming evidence that her daughter was suffering of manic depression including suicidal attempts. She was medicated and mandated to attend counseling sessions. Yet, a simple legal document gave her full authority as to assuming her mother's medical choices. No process of scrutiny was applied.

As myself and other nurses expressed our concerns, her daughter requested that we be dismissed from home health care attendance in her home. In fact, she succeeded in eliminating any exterior influence or observer. The fact she withheld necessary medical care from her mother was never examined. Her mother's social worker was overwhelmed with a caseload not allowing her to dedicate her time to investigate our reports. Many "cracks" in various systems resulting in the victimization and neglict of a senior citizen.

If the State of Florida has very strict legislations in regard to abandonment laws and patient's abuse and neglict, they are not necessarly enforced. Attending nurses who often become the patient's advocate have limited resources to pursue means to prevent such neglict. There is such a hierarchy system to go thru that we are discouraged in our advocacy endeavor.

In Terri's case I was shocked to see how the long term attending nursing staff who deals with Terri on a daily basis has not been given much credibility in their testimonies. When they are the first hand observers of any abnormal deterioration or any improvement of her condition.

All those comments to tell you that we are a long way from having a safe system which is dedicated to protect any vulnerable individual from an unfit custodian. And Terri's case is no indication of a trend to set very strict accountablity measures when it comes to scrutinize the fitness of any custodian.

[AtheistArchon]

The Pro Death Commandos, you know people from hell with a pneumbra here and there to justify abortion and the like, well, they are at it again as most know.

The Vatican has decided to speak against the Pro Death Commandos in Florida.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nat...wsnation-front

- Jack, it's posts like this that make most rational people roll their eyes and ignore any salient point you may have had here. People from hell? It screams 'irrational fundy'. Why Rahab treated it like anything useful is a mystery to me.

[Duder]

- Jack, it's posts like this that make most rational people roll their eyes and ignore any salient point you may have had here. People from hell? It screams 'irrational fundy'. Why Rahab treated it like anything useful is a mystery to me.

Rehab surpasses all in patience and in putting the best construction on what others say. A true saint.

But like you, AA, when a writer starts off with something like "well, those nasty-poopoo-cacas are at it again", my mind stubbornly resists being informed by anything the writer may have had to say.

[Snarf]

The Pro Death Commandos, you know people from hell with a pneumbra here and there to justify abortion and the like, well, they are at it again as most know.

The Vatican has decided to speak against the Pro Death Commandos in Florida.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nat...wsnation-front

(note for the sarcastically impaired)

Yes, the Grand Inquisitor of Rome is answering, getting the bonfires ready to kill the heretics again, to promote the Roman desire to never have anyone ever die, and ensure that the human population of the Earth numbers at least 10 billion, with equal starvation for all (except for the rich in St. Peter's). The Pro Death Commandos should worry, since the Catholic Church has given the world the Inquisition, the Crusades, killing Protestants, promoting the extermination of indigenous peoples worldwidew by accompanying the conquistidors.

After writing all this, i have forgotten who the Pro Death Commandos are.

Seriously Jack, i thought you were a bit more mature. Is name-calling your usual method of trying to engage people in dialogue?

[AtheistArchon]

Rehab surpasses all in patience and in putting the best construction on what others say. A true saint.

But like you, AA, when a writer starts off with something like "well, those nasty-poopoo-cacas are at it again", my mind stubbornly resists being informed by anything the writer may have had to say.

- You're just a poopy head.

[Jack777]

Well, reading Rahab's discussion and then the others that followed is different.

Yes, Rahab I pursued alternative medicine and I am glad to see that people recognize its benefits. I think I would not be alive now if not for alternative medicine. I tried the standard medical route first and it was disastrous. But, that is just some feedback affirming your suggestion as being very on target. I was very blessed to have had a medical doctor who also advocated and practiced alternative therapies.

I think you and I are on the same page with misgivings about what Terri's case tells us. Having seen a few aspects of how people in the health professions view people in Terri's condition and also being an advocate for several years for someone that required a lot of hospitalization and intensive care I realize the implications of the callous indifference of people for whom Terri is a debate topic and not a real person. It is so sad to see how people dehumanize themselves.

As for the rest of you guys, I am so sorry that my wording suggests that I am immature and so below sainthood. But I do not care and I do not care how sensitive you are. You are feigning sensitivity because you have no care whatsoever for real people in real situations that really suffer. Sorry it is so glaring. How mature I am in your worldview is meaningless to me, just like Terri is to you.

[Snarf]

Well, reading Rahab's discussion and then the others that followed is different.

Yes, Rahab I pursued alternative medicine and I am glad to see that people recognize its benefits. I think I would not be alive now if not for alternative medicine. I tried the standard medical route first and it was disastrous. But, that is just some feedback affirming your suggestion as being very on target. I was very blessed to have had a medical doctor who also advocated and practiced alternative therapies.

I think you and I are on the same page with misgivings about what Terri's case tells us. Having seen a few aspects of how people in the health professions view people in Terri's condition and also being an advocate for several years for someone that required a lot of hospitalization and intensive care I realize the implications of the callous indifference of people for whom Terri is a debate topic and not a real person. It is so sad to see how people dehumanize themselves.

As for the rest of you guys, I am so sorry that my wording suggests that I am immature and so below sainthood. But I do not care and I do not care how sensitive you are. You are feigning sensitivity because you have no care whatsoever for real people in real situations that really suffer. Sorry it is so glaring. How mature I am in your worldview is meaningless to me, just like Terri is to you.

Is it Christlike to be this rude, even to those who agree with you on the Terri issue?

[learning]

I am not Roman Catholic, but I did work for many years in a Roman Catholic nursing home run by nuns. (The government now runs it more, and it is not as good, they say)
The nuns were very open to the wishes of the patients, a Jewish lady died there, and the nuns were very good to do everything exactly as the Jewish family wished for before and after she died. There were a few people who were dying, and they WERE dying, like from cancer, and they and their family refused food near the end, and the sisters' honoured this. I remember the nurses having to give morphine for pain for some residents that were dying, and the nurses were very good to be sure the residents breaths were above 10 or 11 a minute, before they gave the morphine. They were willing to keep the resident comfortable, but not kill by medication. I know that that nursing home still has the best reputation in the town we live in, so I have great respect for the Roman Catholic church and the nuns that ran that nursing home. They were very open to the Protestant residents getting their religious visits from ministers, etc. as well.

[Jack777]

Sorry about being rude, it was not intentional. I am becoming accustomed to the fact that being honest is not acceptable and is taken as being offensive. You are an okay guy Snarf, its not that. Now that atheist from Akron, I don't know about. Besides I am used to most people on here with few exceptions being openly demeaning merely for the sake of making their arguments look better than they are.