Apologetics in sermons?

[Cow Poke]

The Bible wasn't written TODAY, that's the problem.

The Holy Spirit of the Living God KNOWS that, but it doesn't limit Him in any way.

Because when you only preach emotional edification type sermons, they don't have any context to attach these deeper things onto and that's the problem of the pastor. We're letting our congregations get mentally atrophied.

I don't preach "only emotional edification type sermons". And I'm NOT into "feel good" stuff.

The Spirit isn't a labor saving device.

Nobody said He was. But neither should He be sold short.

God doesn't do the elbow grease that we don't want to do for us.

And then your child goes to high school and college and apostatize because they run into Bart Ehrman, Jean Dominic Crossan, Richard Dawkins, or somebody similar and they have NO defense or comeback besides "Jesus loves me, this I know". I reflect on my school experience and marvel that I didn't leave the faith. Pastors all over the world are going to have to answer one day for why they only equipped their congregants with wooden swords and aluminum foil helmets for the fight we're all called to undertake.

There's a time and place for the daily devotional type sermons, but the problem is that's ALL anybody's getting and it doesn't even appeal to some people like me in the first place.

Are you a personal soul-winner, Manwe? Do you have a solid devotional life? Are you winning people to Christ? Is that the job of "the Pastor"?

[Cow Poke]

Why does this seem so widespread?

Because we have a bunch of sissy Christians who don't understand that they are called to be Soldiers and Laborers, and they need to stop hiding behind "I'm just not being fed". It's not about HEARING only, it's about DOING.

[Manwë Súlimo]

The Holy Spirit of the Living God KNOWS that, but it doesn't limit Him in any way.

Yea, it kinda does. We're commandeering promises that He never made for us. They might try to see themselves in Jeremiah 29:11 and then wonder why God's not showing up.

Nobody said He was. But neither should He be sold short.

But you just essentially said not to worry about it, as long as the pastor is a good guy we'll magically have the knowledge we'll need.

Are you a personal soul-winner, Manwe? Do you have a solid devotional life? Are you winning people to Christ? Is that the job of "the Pastor"?

I think you're responding to a statement no one ever made...

[Cow Poke]

Yea, it kinda does. We're commandeering promises that He never made for us.

"WE" are? Is that an editorial we, as in YOU? OR you think I do that. Or is this just broadbrushism.

But you just essentially said not to worry about it, as long as the pastor is a good guy we'll magically have the knowledge we'll need.

That is incredibly disingenuous... I did NOT say that, nor do I believe that. I believe you're responding to a statement no one ever made....

I think you're responding to a statement no one ever made...

I'm asking. Are you just an armchair quarterback, or are you in the game? I think it's a fair question.

[Manwë Súlimo]

"WE" are? Is that an editorial we, as in YOU? OR you think I do that. Or is this just broadbrushism.

Uh, people whose primary goal is to know what the Bible says to them TODAY, and how it's relevant TODAY, and how it addresses their life issues TODAY tend to do just hat. They should rather be figuring out simply what the Bible SAYS.

That is incredibly disingenuous... I did NOT say that, nor do I believe that. I believe you're responding to a statement no one ever made....

You need to pay attention to what you say more carefully. To wit:

If the preacher preaches with conviction, and WALKS the talk, the power of the Holy Spirit does the work.

Nothing here about preaching correctly, just done with conviction and as long as he doesn't cheat on his wife, or whatever. Those are fine things to do, but the Spirit isn't going to put meat on a sermon that wasn't there to begin with.

I'm asking. Are you just an armchair quarterback, or are you in the game? I think it's a fair question.

It's an irrelevant question that has no bearing with apologetics in sermons...

[Cow Poke]

Uh, people whose primary goal is to know what the Bible says to them TODAY, and how it's relevant TODAY, and how it addresses their life issues TODAY tend to do just hat. They should rather be figuring out simply what the Bible SAYS.

Uh, I'm doing that, and the Holy Spirit is blessing, and people are coming to know Jesus as Savior, and God is making a difference in their lives.

You need to pay attention to what you say more carefully. To wit:

I know EXACTLY what I said, and I stand by it.

Nothing here about preaching correctly, just done with conviction

Aw, shucks, I figgered you were smart enough to know that was part of it... my apologies that I didn't spell it out better, and that I allowed you to think I was promoting INCORRECT preaching.

and as long as he doesn't cheat on his wife, or whatever.

yeah, ONLY that.

Those are fine things to do, but the Spirit isn't going to put meat on a sermon that wasn't there to begin with.

The meat is in the Word.

It's an irrelevant question that has no bearing with apologetics in sermons...

Thanks. You've answered my question.

[Manwë Súlimo]

Thanks. You've answered my question.

So answer mine. Are you committed then to giving your church, especially the young people, basic knowledge about church history, exegesis, the formation and reliability of the New Testament, and reasons to believe the Resurrection within your sermons? Not all of them, mind, but frequently?

[Cow Poke]

So answer mine. Are you committed then to giving your church, especially the young people, basic knowledge about church history, exegesis, the formation and reliability of the New Testament, and reasons to believe the Resurrection within your sermons? Not all of them, mind, but frequently?

Already answered. Read.

On second thought, given your apparent propensity to read what I write in the most minimalistic manner possible , please allow me to revise and extend my remarks....

So, SUNDAY MORNINGS I don't focus as much on "apologetics" as life issues. Sunday Nights and Wednesday Nights I get more into the "why we believe" thing. In fact, I usually start with a BASIC approach to apologetics like Paul Little's Know Why you Believe and Know What you Believe.

The above is only the BEGINNING of my attempts to inform the Church, as some of them didn't even know much at all about commentaries or exegesis or how to study, so, YES, Manwe, not only am I "committed" to it, I'm already DOING it.

Please note in the above quote... "I START with...."

[Teallaura]

Limiting for the moment to sermons, there are three main things a pastor needs to consider: 1) Where is the Holy Spirit leading? 2)Where is the congregation? 3) What are my own capabilities?


1) This doesn't mean sit around and wait for 'inspiration' - then hurriedly scribble down a sermon Saturday night. But it does mean pray and ask God for His guidance selecting, preaching and teaching His word. We leave this out far too often. Jesus frequently prayed before preaching - while we don't know the content of His prayers it's probably not coincidental and it's certainly reasonable to suspect He may have mentioned His upcoming sermon. At the very least, it's a model to follow, irrespective of content.


2) Philip picked up from Isaiah when talking to the eunuch. Jesus frequently picked up from whatever the person He was speaking with had said (Nicodemus, the woman at the well, the disciples - a lot!). Paul's epistles address actual issues within a given church and go from there to the theological answers. Meeting people where they are is perfectly Biblical - and so is addressing their concerns (how many times did Jesus make an important point and then tell the person that what they needed - healing, usually - had been accomplished? He addressed both the spiritual and the physical needs - which is very much what related to their lives then). Meeting a congregation's needs includes teaching Scripture relevant to their lives (which is why no one ever preaches on a census from Numbers!).

It also includes meeting the needs they don't realize they have - and that would include Scriptural literacy, doctrine, theology and apologetics. Relegating these to Bible study and small group is a disservice to the congregation - they should at least occasionally pop up in sermons. The hard part is knowing when to do what - see #1!.

3) Paul didn't mean try and be something you haven't the talent or ability for when he said he tried to be all things to all people - he actually seems to be referring to relating to people by adopting their customs where possible. 2000 years later self-help books have started jumping on that bandwagon to help people who are socially ill at ease - and it has validity anyway . Paul doesn't lecture Roman soldiers on how to fight - because he would quickly be put to shame as not knowing his stuff. The point is a pastor should consider his/her own limitations. If you can't teach apologetics then make mention as appropriate but get someone else to come do the heavy lifting (nowadays you can just buy a DVD) - don't try to teach what you don't understand well yourself (which would be equally true of theological topics - more so, I'd say). Know your limits - and find ways to overcome them (start with #1!).

Sermons should edify - but there's a lot that needs building up in a human soul so we shouldn't limit sermons to particular areas to the exclusion of all other - nor should we expect every pastor to be able to speak to every subject matter. It's his job to make sure his congregation is edified in all ways - not necessarily his job to do everything himself. That is one of the silliest things we do in the modern church - we mistake the pastor for the only minister in the place!

[KingsGambit]

The one place I'd like to see apologetics emphasized most heavily is in youth groups. Almost every young Christian is going to go through a faith crisis sooner or later, and we all know what they will be assailed with if they go off to college. Frankly, I sometimes am amazed that I stayed a Christian, having been told "don't think, just believe" by my youth group leader as a teenager when I expressed doubts.

Again, this doesn't mean teenagers need to have full courses on the ins and outs of modern textual criticism or the dating of documents or whatever, but they do need to have basic non-emotional reasons to believe in the resurrection of Christ.

(Also, why is this thread in Ecclesiology?)

[Teallaura]

^What KG Said! (We REALLY need Amens back...)

[Cow Poke]

Limiting for the moment to sermons, there are three main things a pastor needs to consider: 1) Where is the Holy Spirit leading?

Absolutely.

2)Where is the congregation?

And, perhaps that's where I'm an odd duck. I tend to be drawn to nearly dead Churches, and/or Churches that have been through conflict, and are NEARLY dead. Then, I do two things....

A) "As much as in me is", I try to coddle the contakerous while...
2) building up the Church by reaching UNCHURCHED people, who don't have to be "untaught" preconceived notions, rituals, habits or customs.

Perhaps, BECAUSE of this, I'm always starting at the "lower end"... dealing with the more BASIC fundamentals of the Christian life.... I usually find somebody else along the way to teach the "more advanced" stuff.

3) What are my own capabilities?

I think I'd be quite capable if I put my mind to it, but I seem to think I'm more of the "seek and save them which are lost" kind of guy... Kinda... "I'll reel 'em in, you clean 'em and school 'em". (slight exaggeration, of course)

I see too many Churches in the "stealing sheep" business, and not enough in the "rounding up the lost" business.

[Cow Poke]

Sermons should edify - but there's a lot that needs building up in a human soul so we shouldn't limit sermons to particular areas to the exclusion of all other - nor should we expect every pastor to be able to speak to every subject matter. It's his job to make sure his congregation is edified in all ways - not necessarily his job to do everything himself. That is one of the silliest things we do in the modern church - we mistake the pastor for the only minister in the place!

Yeah!

[thewriteranon]

I'm ten thousand percent with KG on that post. I was even talking to my mom and grandparents about it a week or two ago after church. I'd love to teach a Bible study for youth at the church I currently attend...That is, if there were any youth there to teach. -sigh-

[RBerman]

I haven't been to a church in a fair while, as some of you may know. The times that I were, however, didn't include apologetics. Do you all think that more sermons should include apologetics? (such as defending the Resurrection, date of the book of Daniel, the Torah, the Gospels etc. and especially, the literal Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic of the original text and its socio-historical contexts which give its likely meanings?)

It's hard to answer a question about "more sermons" in general. We can only speak to some particular church's teaching strategy. All Christians deserve to be taught the rudiments of apologetics, whether through the sermon, or small groups, or Sunday School, etc. I could certainly imagine a church that over-emphasized it until all that it produced was debating machines rather than Christians looking to love and serve their community.

Chances are that someone who hasn't been to church in a while has other things that need to be covered before apologetics.