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orthodox Christians only.

Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

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Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.

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Biblical inerrancy vs Biblical errancey.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I'm going to excuse myself, 37. Have a Merry Christmas.
    I was not trying to be difficult. My apology. You and yours, have a very merry Christmas too.

    I was hoping to generate talk about Biblical errancy issues. And how we might deal with them. Now I had not stated that in my original post. But that is what I had in mind.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      The reason I asked for definitions is because some inerrantists (KJOnliests?) claim that inerrancy means that God has protected the translation process through whatever version or timeframe -- others, like me, claim that the Bible is inerrant in its original manuscripts, which takes into account what you call "errancy".

      So, it really boils down to what version of inerrancy it is to which you're referring.
      A couple things here. First, it was my understanding God's word is what is inerrant. And I think we all here are in agreement with this.

      Now you do not need to answer the following. I agree that the original autographs, as God gave His human authors to write His word, are inerrant.

      In my view, by stating that errancy has to do with "translation," would, I think, eliminate and disallow KJOnlyism. What God preserves is His word, not the perfection of translations. [BTW, I am an avid user of the KJV.]
      Last edited by 37818; 12-22-2014, 10:30 PM. Reason: add missing punctuation
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        It does not hurt to ask someone, anyone what they mean by a particular phrase or word.
        Thats true, but I guess I meant that, your posts in general seem...strange to me. I can't pin it down. I guess you just have a unique way of putting things.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          Thats true, but I guess I meant that, your posts in general seem...strange to me. I can't pin it down. I guess you just have a unique way of putting things.
          I have noticed that often he will not directly address someone sometimes or that he will give extensive Scriptural citations with little interpretation letting them stand on his own. It gives an overall very formal effect, so while I'll very often agree with him, I hesitate to participate in threads he's in. They are often... More difficult? That might be the word.
          Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

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          • #20
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            Biblical inerrancy has to do with God's word.

            Biblical errancy has to do with interpretation, translation, and known variants in the manuscript evidence.
            There many problem texts. Does anyone have any such texts they would like to discuss?
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              There many problem texts. Does anyone have any such texts they would like to discuss?
              I used to -- but I have enough trouble keeping up with the stuff I clearly understand.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                I used to -- but I have enough trouble keeping up with the stuff I clearly understand.
                As much as I am interested in this topic, and like to study the texts in question, it can take too much time and energy to seek solutions for every supposed problem text. So, I only deal with 'em as I see a need. Just one at a time.

                Your comment actually contains an excellent peice of advice: what is clearly understood.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  As much as I am interested in this topic, and like to study the texts in question, it can take too much time and energy to seek solutions for every supposed problem text. So, I only deal with 'em as I see a need. Just one at a time.
                  Yeah, I have no problem with theorizing.

                  Your comment actually contains an excellent peice of advice: what is clearly understood.
                  As I get older, it just really hits me that we should spend more time doing what we clearly understand we SHOULD be doing, and less time arguing the same thing others have been arguing for 2000 years.

                  BUT, this IS a "discussion" board, so ...
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    There many problem texts. Does anyone have any such texts they would like to discuss?
                    Probably the most blatant is that it's unlikely that anything before about Judges happened as described in the OT. I'm not interested in arguing over this, as I'm not an archaeologist. But this is the current view of almost all archaeologists I know who don't have a precommitment to inerrancy. (Sorry, but I'm not up for special Christian versions of biology, physics, astronomy, geology, and archaeology.)

                    Then there are minor disagreements, e.g. between Gospels (and somewhat more major between the synoptics and John).

                    Other types of issue: Different NT writers have different perspectives. Paul defines Gospel differently from Jesus in the synoptics. His overall approach to salvation is simply different than Jesus'. I think you can bring their viewpoints close to each other by seeing Paul's faith as being equivalent of the kind of obedient life Jesus talked about. But still, there's a different approach.

                    1 Tim 2's teaching on women is inconsistent with Paul's.

                    Paul's teachings on sexual issues and slavery are probably appropriate for the 1st Cent, but if pulled out of that context and used to answer today's questions don't work. He also bought into the ideal of sexual purity. Purity as a moral concept is opposed to Jesus' teaching. Jesus would say that no one can be pure. We should strive for obedience, but not regard ourselves as having the kind of moral status that "pure" implies. (Note that "holy" and "pure" are not used of human beings in Jesus' teachings, are seldom in the NT at all.)

                    The Rev's wallowing in death and destruction are inconsistent with Jesus.

                    I'm not sure just how much time I'm interested in putting into such a discussion. The problem is that people committed to inerrancy won't acknowledge any of the problems, even when they're staring you in the face, and nothing anyone can do will make any difference. It's like the endless arguments over evolution. Just not worth it.

                    I agree with Cow Poke that it's better to spend our time trying to be good Christians. The only problem with this is that there are significant differences in what Jesus taught that meant and what the tradition defended by inerrancy teaches it means. Starting with why Jesus came.
                    Last edited by hedrick; 12-24-2014, 01:34 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by hedrick View Post
                      Probably the most blatant is that it's unlikely that anything before about Judges happened as described in the OT. I'm not interested in arguing over this, as I'm not an archaeologist. But this is the current view of almost all archaeologists I know who don't have a precommitment to inerrancy. (Sorry, but I'm not up for special Christian versions of biology, physics, astronomy, geology, and archaeology.)

                      Then there are minor disagreements, e.g. between Gospels (and somewhat more major between the synoptics and John).

                      Other types of issue: Different NT writers have different perspectives. Paul defines Gospel differently from Jesus in the synoptics. His overall approach to salvation is simply different than Jesus'. I think you can bring their viewpoints close to each other by seeing Paul's faith as being equivalent of the kind of obedient life Jesus talked about. But still, there's a different approach.

                      1 Tim 2's teaching on women is inconsistent with Paul's.

                      Paul's teachings on sexual issues and slavery are probably appropriate for the 1st Cent, but if pulled out of that context and used to answer today's questions don't work. He also bought into the ideal of sexual purity. Purity as a moral concept is opposed to Jesus' teaching. Jesus would say that no one can be pure. We should strive for obedience, but not regard ourselves as having the kind of moral status that "pure" implies. (Note that "holy" and "pure" are not used of human beings in Jesus' teachings, are seldom in the NT at all.)

                      The Rev's wallowing in death and destruction are inconsistent with Jesus.

                      I'm not sure just how much time I'm interested in putting into such a discussion. The problem is that people committed to inerrancy won't acknowledge any of the problems, even when they're staring you in the face, and nothing anyone can do will make any difference. It's like the endless arguments over evolution. Just not worth it.

                      I agree with Cow Poke that it's better to spend our time trying to be good Christians. The only problem with this is that there are significant differences in what Jesus taught that meant and what the tradition defended by inerrancy teaches it means. Starting with why Jesus came.
                      Well, which one of these would you like to discuss?
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I don't understand the statement that Paul's teachings on sexuality "don't work" today.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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