Jesus in the Talmud

[Pythagoras]

Hors d'oeuvres:

.Sanhedrin 106b

A sectarian said to R. Chanina: Do you know how old Balaam was? [R. Chanina] replied: It is not written. However, since it says (Psalms 55:24) "Men of bloodshed and deceit will not live out half their days..." he was 33 or 34. [The heretic] said: You said well. I have seen the chronicle of Balaam and it said "At 33 years Balaam the lame was killed by Pinchas (Phineas) the robber."

Balaam is codeword for Jesus throughout the Talmud. Pinchas is Pontius Pilate.



.Sanhedrin 106a

R. Yochanan said (regarding Balaam): In the beginning a prophet, in the end a sorcerer.
Rav Papa said: As people say, "She was the descendant of princes and rulers, she played the harlot with carpenters."

Rav Papa is refering to Mary in the second sentence.The first refers to Jesus.

Comments?

[technomage]

Balaam is codeword for Jesus throughout the Talmud.

Oh, is this so? And tell me, how do you know this? Are there other uses of Balaam in the Talmud that use Balaam as a codeword for Jesus?
For there are several other references to Balaam in the Talmud ... but oddly enough, each and every one of them is unequivocably about Balaam son of Beor, whose story was told in Numbers.Some other mentions of Balaam in the Talmudic literature:
* Sifrei on Deuteronomy 34:10
* Avot DeRabbi Natan 2:5
* Mishnah Avot 5:19

Pinchas is Pontius Pilate.

Says who? You?

"Pinchas" is not a corruption of Pilate, but of Phineas.

Num. 31:6-8

6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba-the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.

Talmudic tradition was that it was specifically Phineas who killed Balaam.

.Sanhedrin 106a

R. Yochanan said (regarding Balaam): In the beginning a prophet, in the end a sorcerer.
Rav Papa said: As people say, "She was the descendant of princes and rulers, she played the harlot with carpenters."

Rav Papa is refering to Mary in the second sentence.The first refers to Jesus.

Rav Papa is giving a parable about the blessed who fall to low estate ... as Balaam son of Beor fell from being a prophet of YHVH to a sorcerer who was hired to curse Israel.

So nice to see you again, Pythagoras. Pity you fell for such poor sources, yet again. Oh, and if you're going to continue on this vein, please tell me you're going to cite the Talmud Gittin ... that one's so much fun to disassemble.

Justin

[Pythagoras]

Wiccan,


It's certain Jesus and Mary are in view in those passages just presented. And there's much more, as you already seem to know.

You betray more than a cursory knowledge of the polemics of the Jews,Wiccan. Bob Jones be the guilty party by any chance? I was beginnig to think myself as the only one (at least on these threads ). I'm officially listed as being impressed by your knowledge of this Jambalaya. Wiccan, refrences to a thirty-three year old, hanged, Ballam and to an adulturess of royal descent running around with carpenters are hardly coincidental, don't you think? -- hint, hint.



Look it. Many passages in the Talmudic books treat of the birth, life, death, and teachings of Jesus Christ. He is not always referred to by the name Jesus for obvious reasons , but is diversely spited as "That Man," "A Certain One," "The Carpenter's Son," "The One Who Was Hanged," "Baalam", "Peloni" , "Son of Pandira(Roman soldier) etc.

Since the word Jeschua means "Savior," the name Jesus rarely occurs in the Jewish books. It is almost always abbreviated to Jeschu, which is maliciously taken as if it were composed of the initial letters of the three words Immach Schemo Vezikro - "May his name and memory be blotted out."



Elsewhere he is simply called Peloni the bastard- "A Certain One." In Chagigah, 4b, we read:
"Mary...the mother of a certain one, of whom it is related in Schabbath..." (104b)
That this Mary is none other than the mother of Jesus can easily be shown.

Out of contempt, Jesus is also called Naggar bar naggar - "the carpenter son of a carpenter", also Ben charsch etaim - "the son of a wood worker."

He is also called Talui - "The one who was hanged."

This son of Stada was the son of Pandira. For Rabbi Chasda tells us that Pandira was the husband of Stada, his mother, and he lived during the time Paphus the son of Jehuda. But his mother was stada, Mary of Magdala (a ladies' hairdresser) who, as it is said in Pumbadita, deserted her husband."
The meaning of this is that his Mary was called Stada, that is, a prostitute, because, according to what was taught at Pumbadita, she left her husband and commited adultery. This is also recorded in the Jerusalem Talmud and by Maimonides.

That the mention here is of Mary, the mother of Jesus, is verified in the Tract Chagigah, 4b:
"When Rabbi Bibhai was visited once by the Death Angel (the devil), the latter said to his assistant: "Go and bring to me Mary the hairdresser" (that is, kill her). He went and brought Mary the children's hairdresser - in place of the other Mary."


Although the Rabbis in their additions to the Talmud try to hide their malice and say that it is not Jesus Christ, their deceit is plainly evident, and many things prove that they wrote and understood all these things about him. In the first place, they also call him the son of Pandira. Jesus the Nazarene is thus called in other passages of the Talmud where express mention is made of Jesus the son of Pandira. St. John Damascene also, in his Genealogy of Christ, mentions Panthera and the Son of Panthera. Panthera was ofcourse a Roman soldier.

This Stada is said to be Mary, and this Mary the mother of Peloni "that certain one," by which without doubt Jesus is meant. For in this way they were accustomed to cover up his name because they were afraid to mention it.


He is called "the one who was hanged," which clearly refers to the crucifixion of Christ, especially since a reference to the time "on the eve of the Passover" is added, which coincides with the time of the crucifixion of Jesus.


And this is just the tip of the ice berg. Jesus reserved his severest rebukes for the crocked Rabbis (and by implication their crocked descendants); these compilers of Talmud , Midrash polemics. He recognized what was in their malicious hearts, and they certainly didn't disappoint. Jesus knew them well indeed-- 'brood of vipers', 'white washed tombs', 'hypocrites', 'children of the Evil One', 'liars' etc.

best,

[Conductor42]

My comment:

The "Balaam" being discussed in Sanhedrin 106a is specifically identified as the prophet/sorcerer, Balaam the son of Peor.

Balaam also the son of Beor, the soothsayer, [did the children of Israel slay with the sword]. A soothsayer? But he was a prophet! — R. Yohanan said: At first he was a prophet, but subsequently a soothsayer. R. Papa observed: This is what men say, 'She who was the descendant of princes and governors, played the harlot with carpenters.

[Pythagoras]

Hi Yosh.,

My comment:

The "Balaam" being discussed in Sanhedrin 106a is specifically identified as the prophet/sorcerer, Balaam the son of Peor.

You can deny it until the cows come home, but it's pretty obvious who this Ballam is. Anyway your own Maimonides doesn't even bother with codewords , he goes straight for the jugular.

Immediately after Maimonides' admonition that it is a duty for Jews not to save a drowning or perishing Gentile(and non-Torah believing Jew), he informs us of the Talmudic duty for Jews towards Christians, and also towards Jews who deny the Talmud:

Maimonides, Mishnah Torah, Chapter 10 , pg.184:

"It is a mitzvah [religious duty;like the muslim Jihad], however, to eradicate Jewish traitors, minnim, and apikorsim, and to cause them to descend to the pit of destruction, since they cause difficulty to the Jews and sway the people away from God, as did Jesus of Nazareth and his students, and Tzadok, Baithos, and their students. May the name of the wicked rot."

The commentary accompanying the preceding statement of Maimonides mentions that Jesus was an example of a min (plural: minnim). The commentary also states that the followers of Tzadok were defined as those Jews who deny the truth of the Talmud and who uphold only the written law (i.e. the Old Testament),and that includes you Yosh!


So the evidence is quite clear cut . . You are, however, free to delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

best,

[technomage]

Wiccan,

Take a chill pill.

Oh, I'm plenty chill. Nice and relaxed. I've got my coffee, and despite the rain outside, it's a beautiful day.

It's certain Jesus and Mary are in view in those passages just presented. And there's much more, as you already seem to know.

You see, that's the basic question that's being begged ... you may argue that it is "certain" but you offer no substantiation save for your own assertions. All of these connections ... what, was Jesus the only "villain" in all of Judaic history? Is every single reference you've mentioned actually speaking of Jesus of Nazareth, or have you (yet again) assumed that any point of similarity can be stretched to the identity that you choose?

But you know, I just don't think that's the real issue here. There seems to be an overall pattern of rejecting anything associated with the Jews: the Talmudic and Mishnaic literature; the Kabbalah; Rabbinic Judaism. Heaven knows you accuse Eliyoseph and Yosh of dishonesty every time they turn around, and you seem to assume they don't understand Hebrew as well as you do.

But this is all boiling down to one question I want to ask you: wasn't Jesus Jewish?

Justin

[Conductor42]

You can deny it until the cows come home, but it's pretty obvious who this Ballam is. Anyway your own Maimonides doesn't even bother with codewords , he goes straight for the jugular.

Of course, these are two seperate issues.

Immediately after Maimonides' admonition that it is a duty for Jews not to save a drowning or perishing Gentile(and non-Torah believing Jew),

Why don't you be so kind as to verify this with a quote?

he informs us of the Talmudic duty for Jews towards Christians, and also towards Jews who deny the Talmud:

Maimonides, Mishnah Torah, Chapter 10 , pg.184:

"It is a mitzvah [religious duty;like the muslim Jihad], however, to eradicate Jewish traitors, minnim, and apikorsim, and to cause them to descend to the pit of destruction, since they cause difficulty to the Jews and sway the people away from God, as did Jesus of Nazareth and his students, and Tzadok, Baithos, and their students. May the name of the wicked rot."

Hrm... this sounds different from the Christian belief that they need to convert the entire world (and thus, get rid of beliefs not acceptable to them), how?

Oh yeah, that's right... it doesn't. And, when Biblical Law is in effect (a condition that hasn't existed for millenia) - i.e. with the temple standing and the sanhedrin established, a person could be put to death for such things. See Deuteronomy 13, among other scriptures.

The commentary accompanying the preceding statement of Maimonides mentions that Jesus was an example of a min (plural: minnim).

That is one opinion. And if he taught what the majority of Christianity says he did, the Maimonides was right on the target.

The commentary also states that the followers of Tzadok were defined as those Jews who deny the truth of the Talmud and who uphold only the written law (i.e. the Old Testament),and that includes you Yosh!

And since when have I denied my faith?! Perhaps you are confusing me with another?

So the evidence is quite clear cut . . You are, however, free to delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

You know what, I've done my best to be courteous towards everyone on this forum, including you. You have been nothing but aarogant towards me, and i'm tired of it. *NEWS FLASH* You don't know everything, contrary to how you act. If you're going to discuss anything with me, leave the ad hominem at the door. If not, please refrain from discussion with me.

[Pythagoras]

Wiccan and Yosh,



That the religious fundamentalist Jewish leadership believes Jesus of Nazareth is indeed harkened to in the Talmud is beyond dispute. Sometimes they don't even try to hide this fact, and quite frankly acknowledge . Following link of the Lubavitcher Rebbeim shows what I mean.




http://www.noahide.com/index.htm

http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm



"The Bible gave a warning about a dangerous, false prophet who would arise to test our faith in G-d. In Deuteronomy 13, G-d describes this false prophet as a member of the Jewish people (v. 2, 7) who would tell true prophecies and would have the power of miracles. G-d Himself would give this false prophet the power to perform miracles and reveal prophecy, but the false prophet would try to seduce the people away from G-d's Law and towards strange gods unknown to Judaism. The purpose would be to test whether we are truly committed to living under the Law, or whether we will be dazzled and fall for the temptation to join a false path to salvation (v. 3-6, 7-8, 11). In this Biblical passage, G-d repeatedly commands the Jews to kill this false prophet, lest the evil spread and destroy many souls…..

In Deuteronomy 17, this false prophet is also described as someone who would rebel against the authority of the judges of the Jewish people, and who should be put to death for his rebelliousness (v. 8-13, esp. v. 12). Who are the judges? The highest court in Israel was the Sanhedrin, which was established by Moses (Exodus 18:13-26; Numbers 11:16-29), and which lasted more than 15 centuries. The members of the Sanhedrin were the rabbis known as "Pharisees" (Pirushim, "those with the explanation"). G-d gave permanent authority to these judges to interpret the Law and G-d's Word, and it is a commandment to follow their decisions without turning even slightly to the right or the left (Deut. 17:11). But the false prophet would challenge the authority of the Sanhedrin, thus revealing himself to be an evil man….

In the book of the prophet Daniel, this false prophet is described as a king (the eleventh horn on a terrible beast) who would wage war against the Jews (the "holy ones"; see Deut. 14:2 on this term) and would change the Law including the calendar and the holidays (Daniel 7:8, 20-25). Elsewhere, this false prophet is described as a king who would disregard the G-d of his fathers, exalting himself as a god and giving honor to this new god-head (Daniel 11:36-39).

The man known today as "Jesus" fulfilled all these prophecies. He became a "king" (over the Christian church) who changed the original Law, doing away with the Hebrew calendar and the Biblical holidays (Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkos the Festival of Tabernacles, Passover, etc.). He disregarded the one, infinite G-d of the Hebrew Bible in favor of a new "trinity" that included himself. And he repeatedly broke the Law by committing terrible sins, while openly challenging the G-d-given authority of the rabbis of the Sanhedrin….

Naturally, Jesus did sometimes pretend to respect the Law, but whenever he thought he could get away with it, he turned right around and broke that same Law. In Matthew 5:17-19, he declared that he came to fulfill the Law, and in Matthew 23:1-3 he defended the authority of the rabbis. But the rest of the time, he rebelled against the Law — thus showing that his occasional words of piety were meant only to hide his evil agenda. The following sins of Jesus are recorded in the "New Testament":…"


"The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of "Jesus the Nazarene":

1) He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).

2) He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).

3) He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh — which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).

The false, rebellious message of Jesus has been thoroughly rejected by the vast majority of the Jewish people, as G-d commanded. Unfortunately, however, this same message has brought a terrible darkness upon the world; today, over 1.5 billion gentiles believe in Jesus. These lost souls mistakenly think they have found salvation in Jesus; tragically, they are in for a rude awakening. Truth and eternal life are found directly from G-d, through performing His Law. Any "mediator" only separates man from G-d:"

Good Luck,

[InChristAlways]

The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of "Jesus the Nazarene":

1) He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).

2) He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).

3) He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh — which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).

The false, rebellious message of Jesus has been thoroughly rejected by the vast majority of the Jewish people, as G-d commanded. Unfortunately, however, this same message has brought a terrible darkness upon the world; today, over 1.5 billion gentiles believe in Jesus. These lost souls mistakenly think they have found salvation in Jesus; tragically, they are in for a rude awakening. Truth and eternal life are found directly from G-d, through performing His Law. Any "mediator" only separates man from G-d:"

Good Luck,

Hi Pytah. Sounds like they are comparing Jesus to themselves according to God in the OC. Kind of like the "pot calling the kettle black".It appears they were already trusting in "Lying words" before God destroyed their temple and "den of thieves"[at least according to the book of revelation]. Jeremiah was told to not even PRAY for those people!! Sheesh.
I suppose their messiah will come and redeem them sometime in the future and thank God ours came and redeemed US!!!!! Thank you Jesus, Lord, King, Savior and True God!.

Jeremiah 7:8 " Behold, you trust in lying words that cannot profit. 9 "Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Baal, and walk after other gods whom you do not know, 10 "and [then] come and stand before Me in this house which is called by My name, and say, 'We are delivered to do all these abominations'? 11 "Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of thieves in your eyes? Behold, I, even I, have seen [it,"] says the LORD. 12 " But go now to My place which [was] in Shiloh, where I set My name at the first, and see what I did to it because of the wickedness of My people Israel. 13 "And now, because you have done all these works," says the LORD, "and I spoke to you, rising up early and speaking, but you did not hear, and I called you, but you did not answer, 14 "therefore I will do to the house which is called by My name, in which you trust, and to this place which I gave to you and your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh. 15 "And I will cast you out of My sight, as I have cast out all your brethren -- the whole posterity of Ephraim. 16 " Therefore do not pray for this people, nor lift up a cry or prayer for them, nor make intercession to Me; for I will not hear you.

Matt 21:12 Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 13 And He said to them, "It is written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer,' but you have made it a 'den of thieves.' " 14 Then [the] blind and [the] lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.

[Pythagoras]

InChristAlways,


My problem is only with the [minority] hypocritical Rabbis, Scribes and Pharisees.
The vaste majority of the Jewish people are fine, outstanding , honest, sincere people. Never confuse the two. It leads to anti-Semitism which we must prevent at all costs.

Best

[InChristAlways]

InChristAlways,


My problem is only with the [minority] hypocritical Rabbis, Scribes and Pharisees.
The vaste majority of the Jewish people are fine, outstanding , honest, sincere people. Never confuse the two. It leads to anti-Semitism which we must prevent at all costs.

Best

Hi Pytha. I understand, and the jews of "today" in no way compare to the corrupt jewish rulers who worshipped the "temple" itself instead of God. I guess I am just saddened that they really cannot see Christ as their redeemer, but I pray everyday they eventually will. I will stay off this thread since I have no idea what the Talmud teaches, only what the Scriptures teach. God bless with Peace and Love.

jeremiah 13: 9 "Thus says the LORD: 'In this manner I will ruin the pride of Judah and the great pride of Jerusalem. 10 'This evil people, who refuse to hear My words, who follow the dictates of their hearts, and walk after other gods to serve them and worship them, shall be just like this sash which is profitable for nothing.

acts 26:15 "So I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And He said, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 'But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 'I will deliver you from the [Jewish] people, as well as [from] the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18'to open their eyes, [in order] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'

[Pythagoras]

This is what Dr. Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion, pp. 97- 98, says:


"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.
"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...

"The Hebrew form of the name Jesus--Yeshu--was interpreted as an acronym for the curse, 'may his name and memory be wiped out,' which is used as an extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-zionist Orthodox Jews (such as Neturey Qarta) sometimes refer to Herzl as 'Herzl Jesus' and I have found in religious zionist writings expressions such as "Nasser Jesus" and more recently 'Arafat Jesus." --

Best,

[Pythagoras]

Yosh,

Why don't you be so kind as to verify this with a quote?

Maimonides, Mishnah Torah, (Moznaim Publishing Corporation, Brooklyn, New York, 1990, Chapter 10,
p. 184: "Accordingly, if we see an idolater (gentile) being swept away or drowning in the river, we should not help him. If we see that his life is in danger, we should not save him." -- The Hebrew text of the Feldheim 1981 edition of Mishnah Torah states this as well.

[All the more ironical since Jewish leaders(including the wise Solomon) have since time immemorial been some of the most ardent, hardcore, irrecorrigible idolators in human history. .]

That is one opinion. And if he taught what the majority of Christianity says he did, the Maimonides was right on the target.

Thanks for being frank about it. I respect honesty.

And since when have I denied my faith?! Perhaps you are confusing me with another?

Did I ever say you denied your faith? You're a Karaite aren't you? The Talmud believing Jews don't take too kindly to your fraternity, thats all I meant by my remark.. The Karaites have been most hated and severely persecuted by orthodox Jewish rabbinate.

If you're going to discuss anything with me, leave the ad hominem at the door. If not, please refrain from discussion with me.

Are you sure you weren't accidentally separated from Wiccan at birth ? Loosen up.





I think Jewish scholar Hyam Maccoby, quoting Rabbi Yehiel ben Joseph put it best:" Further, without the Talmud, we would not be able to understand passages in the Bible... God has handed this authority to the sages and tradition is a necessity as well as scripture.The sages also made enactments of their own... anuyone who does not study the Talmud cannot understand Scripture."

So, to be brutally blunt, the famous warning of Jesus Christ about the traditions of men that voids Scripture(mark 7:1-13), is in fact, a direct refrence to the Talmud, or more specifically, the foreruner of the first part of it, the Mishna, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime, before being committed to writing.

And that's the way the cookie crumbles.

[Pythagoras]

Hello Wiccan,

Oh, I'm plenty chill. Nice and relaxed. I've got my coffee, and despite the rain outside, it's a beautiful day.

You mean it's sunny despite the rain?

Is every single reference you've mentioned actually speaking of Jesus of Nazareth, or have you (yet again) assumed that any point of similarity can be stretched to the identity that you choose?

The Talmud refrences I'm harkening to render their maligned as a Carpenter, a Carpenter's Son, a false prophet who got hanged(crucified), died at the age of 33, and much more.-- Can't you take a hint Wiccan?-- Dr. Israel Shahak and other scholars agree with me, not to mention many of the Jewish leadership(not that their opinion matters much).

O.K. have it your way. If not all, then how many refrences in the Talmud, in your opinion, refer to Jesus of Nazareth? Show them . Ball's in your court.

But you know, I just don't think that's the real issue here. There seems to be an overall pattern of rejecting anything associated with the Jews: the Talmudic and Mishnaic literature; the Kabbalah; Rabbinic Judaism.

On the contrary, I'm accepting what the Talmud is saying. .

Heaven knows you accuse Eliyoseph and Yosh of dishonesty every time they turn around, and you seem to assume they don't understand Hebrew as well as you do.

Don't know about Yosh, he seems to be an honest fella , but Eliyosef is a highly biased, fanatic, fundamentalist from Yeshiva University[Jewish Madrasa]. It's like asking propoganda minister Gobbles to translate Hebrew Bible into German.-- i not going to work, it will be one-sided, biased, party-line poppycock.

But this is all boiling down to one question I want to ask you: wasn't Jesus Jewish?

Ofcourse Jesus was a Jew, unless ofcourse you believe the Talmud which seems to hint that Mary committed adultury with Panthera, the Roman soldier. Jesus didn't take too kindly to these hypocrites, liars: Jewish Scribes, Pharisees and Rabbis, writers of the Talmud .

[technomage]

That the religious fundamentalist Jewish leadership believes Jesus of Nazareth is indeed harkened to in the Talmud is beyond dispute.

Now that is the crux of the issue, Py. Yes, absolutely there are some Jewish religious teachers who assume this ... but you asserted "most" in your last post, and the phrasing of this sentence could be taken as a statement that all the "religious fundamentalist Jewish leadership" believe that. You have given no proof for your assertion of proportion, which is the important part here.

As for Maimonides ...

Maimonides, Mishnah Torah, Chapter 10 , pg.184:

Now, of course we may assume you're quoting this from a book, rather than from a web-site? No? Well, that's too bad, really ... because it proves, yet again, just how willing you are to leap upon any information to support your tirade against Judaism, even if that information is a lie.

Do you think you reveal something new? No, Pythagoras, this is an old lie, and it's all over the Internet already. Try the following page on Google--almost 106 pages, and most of them almost word for word with the page you swiped your quoted information from in the OP.

And guess what ... repetition does not make the lie any less a lie.

First and foremost, Pythagoras, are you aware of how big the Mishneh Torah is? There has been no complete English version printed: the Yale Judaica version was started in 1949, is up to 14 volumes (so far), and isn't finished yet. Oh, but if you'd like to try, the full text of the Mishneh Talmud is here. But it's in Hebrew.

Face it, Pythagoras ... in your eagerness to condemn the "religious fundamentalist Jewish leadership," you got ahold of bad information, yet again. Are you honestly so eager to condemn these people that you will attatch yourself to any lie?

Justin