Originally posted by 37818
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Does 2 + 2 = 4 need a god to be true?
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"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI would say it depends on whether 2+2=4 is a property of our universe or a property of logic itself. Could there be a universe where math works differently? I don't know.
But the basics of logic do not depend on God. God can't exist and not exist at the same time and in the same way for instance.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostOne can easily modify it: if a god is defined to possess the attribute of being the ultimate and necessary source of all rationality, then the question in the title is answered in the affirmative. Whether this god possesses the other attributes you mention are not relevant to the question."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThen God as such is not needed. In my view the basics of logic is of the LORD God.
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostYes.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostDefining a god as having a certain attribute does not imply that such a being actually exists. If one wants to assert that a god possesses, amongst its other attributes, the property of being the ultimate and necessary source of all rationality, then they are free to support such a claim with argument. Similarly, if one wants to assert that possessing the attribute of being the ultimate and necessary source of all rationality would necessarily require that such a being also possesses other characteristics (such as personality, intelligence, omnipotence, etc) then they have the burden of proof for such a claim.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostLogic isn't something that is created. It is a language that explains the way things are. It explains rationality, it doesn't create it. So saying "A cannot be A and not A in the same way at the same time" is not something created to be that way, it just the way we describe the way things ARE. There is no way that it could be different. Even when it comes to God. God can't both exist and not exist at the same time in the same way. That is just "truth". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThat is in my view of the identity of God and the meaning of God's name, translated as "the LORD," that meaning, "the Self Existent.""[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostI didn't express myself well: I'm implicitly invoking some type of possible universe argument: in a universe where there exists a god defined to possess the attribute of being the ultimate and necessary source of all rationality (in that universe) then "2+2=4" needs the god to be true."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostI was under the impression that the question in the OP was asking whether this situation is actually the case.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou might want to try typing in English.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostSo you think the uncaused existence being an Intelligence to be some kind of word said?
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostDoes 2 + 2 = 4 need a god to be true?
If by a god one means a mere deity, then no.
If by a god one means the LORD God, then the answer is yes.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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