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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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The Tower of Babel

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  • #31
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    What is so obvious about Nimrod's connection to the Antichrist? I don't see anything in the text about it.
    ## IMHO the OP has been reading - or been more remotely influenced by - Alexander Hislop's "The Two Babylons", in which Nimrod plays a leading part, including that of "anti-Messiah". Jack Chick is a - one is tempted to say - "pusher" of this stuff, in several of his tracts & comics.

    Or there is the Jewish-Patristic connecting of Gen.10.8-12 & 11.1-9, with Rev.17-18 (& 2 Thessalonians 2, assisted by hefty helpings of Daniel). Thanks to the connection of the passages in Genesis, Nimrod came to be thought of as the typical tyrant. Because of the likeness between the PN. Ur, and the Hebrew word for "fire", & Daniel 3, there was a Jewish legend that Abram was thrown into a furnace by Nimrod for refusing to worship idols. Under the influence of the Septuagint, which translates *gibbor* as "giant" rather than "mighty", by way of the Old Latin version of Genesis used by St Augustine, Nimrod came to be thought of as a giant - which is why he is one of Dante's giants in Inferno canto 31. Giants get a bad rap in the Bible (& in Greek & other mythologies), so it was natural to put all this together & see Nimrod, the first king after the Flood, as a type of Antichrist & an all-round Bad Person.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by OU812 View Post
      I wonder what Darfius would make of the fact that Revelation was the latest book of the Bible to be accepted into the canon of scripture*, being that "it is of supreme importance to eschatology" and all....

      *doesn't feature in Eastern Orthodox liturgy to this day
      ## It is very important for eschatology. It's striking that both it and Daniel, so much of which is apocalyptic just as all of Rev is, should be the last books to be canonised in the two Testaments. Revelation shows the judgement of the Church (2-3) & of the nations (6-18) and the Coming of the Kingdom (11.15 in particular), to which the other NT books look forward. It's a perfect ending to the Bible.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by square_peg View Post
        No, no, no. You still seem to have trouble reading and reproducing posts. I said that there was no apparent connection with the Tower of Babel and eschatology. Of the entire field of eschatology, how am I supposed to know that you were referring to the one aspect that is mystery Babylon? You didn't mention mystery Babylon in your OP, and besides, eschatology encompasses so much more than that.

        You should probably do some more critical self-analysis if you thought that being so vague and then expecting people to understand what you mean qualifies as being reasonable.

        You have failed to make a convincing case that you belong in this group.

        That's quite a stretch. Jesus simply said that Chorazin and Bethsaida will be ultimately be judged severely. That doesn't entail that every "direct, conscious, open rebellion by large groups of people" has to do with the end of the world. And even if it did, how does this favor one particular side either way?

        Temples. Ziggurats. Things like that. They all were intended to fulfill a symbolic spiritual purpose.
        ## The story reads very much like a Jewish parody of Tablet 6 of the so-called Babylonian Epic of Creation, the Enuma Elish (= "When on high" - the opening words). ("The Exaltation of Marduk" might be a more informative title. The accepted date for the poem is in the reign of Nebuchadnezzar I of Babylon (1124-1103 B.C.)

        "There could never be, of course, any question about the locale of the narrative concerning the Tower of Babel (Gen. 11:1-9). But the link with Mesopotamia goes farther in this case than the geographic background alone. It was long believed that this particular account owed its origin to the impressive appearance of the temple tower of Babylon. This ziggurat, however, as Herodotus describes it, was the proud achievement of Nabopolassar and Nebuchadnezzar, in the seventh/sixth centuries B.C., several centuries after the date of the Biblical narrative in question. The actual starting point of our story was not monumental but literary. We need look for it no farther than the account of the building of Babylon’s main temple and its tower, as given in Enuma elish VI 60-62. The name of the sacred precinct was Esagila, which is Sumerian for “structure with upraised head.” The Babylonian poem makes a word play on this name when it states that “they raised its (i.e. Esagila’s) head toward Apsu (in this context a synonym for the sky).” The same passage, moreover, stresses the ceremonial preparation of the bricks that were to be used in the construction of Esagila. The corresponding Biblical text says, “Come, let us mold bricks and burn them hard…Let us build ourselves a city, and a tower with its head in the sky.” If the Biblical writer had actually had the text of the Babylonian Genesis before him, he could hardly have come much closer to the Akkadian original."

        http://www.penn.museum/sites/expedit...rs-of-genesis/

        "...Marduk, the king of the gods divided
        All the Anunnaki above and below. (40)
        He assigned them to Anu to guard his instructions.
        Three hundred in the heavens he stationed as a guard.
        In like manner the ways of the earth he defined.
        In heaven and on earth six hundred thus he settled.
        After he had ordered all the instructions,
        To the Anunnaki of heaven and earth had alloted their portions,
        The Anunnaki opened their mouths
        And said to Marduk, their lord:

        "Now, O lord, you who have caused our deliverance,
        What shall be our homage to you? (50)
        Let us build a shrine whose name shall be called
        `Lo, a chamber for our nightly rest'; let us repose in it!
        Let us build a throne, a recess for his abode!
        On the day that we arrive we shall repose in it."

        When Marduk heard this,
        Brightly glowed his features, like the day:

        "Construct Babylon, whose building you have requested,
        Let its brickwork be fashioned. You shall name it `The Sanctuary.'"

        The Anunnaki applied the implement;
        For one whole year they molded bricks. (60)
        When the second year arrived,
        They raised high the head of Esagila equaling Apsu.
        Having built a stage-tower as high as Apsu,
        They set up in it an abode for Marduk, Enlil, and Ea
        In their presence he was seated in grandeur.
        To the base of Esharra its horns look down.

        After they had achieved the building of Esagila,
        All the Anunnaki erected their shrines.
        The three hundred Igigi . . . . . . all of them gathered,
        The lord being on the lofty dais which they had built as his abode, (70)
        The gods, his fathers, at his banquet he seated:

        "This is Babylon, the place that is your home!
        Make merry in its precincts, occupy its broad places."

        The great gods took their seats,
        They set up festive drink, sat down to a banquet.
        After they had made merry within it,
        In Esagila, the splendid, had performed their rites,
        The norms had been fixed and all their portents,
        All the gods apportioned the stations of heaven and earth.
        The fifty great gods took their seats. (80)
        The seven gods of destiny set up the three hundred in heaven.
        Enlil raised the bow, his weapon, and laid it before them.
        The gods, his fathers, saw the net he had made.
        When they beheld the bow, how skillful its shape,
        His fathers praised the work he had wrought.
        Raising it, Anu spoke up in the Assembly of the gods,
        As he kissed the bow: "This is my daughter!"
        He named the names of the bow as follows:

        "Longwood is the first, the second is Accurate;
        Its third name is Bow-Star, in heaven I have made it shine." (90)

        He fixed its position with the gods its brothers.
        After Anu had decreed the fate of the bow,
        And had placed the lofty royal throne before the gods,
        Anu placed it in the Assembly of the gods.
        When the great gods had assembled,
        They extolled the destiny of Marduk, they bowed down,
        They pronounced among themselves a curse,
        Swearing by water and oil to place life in jeopardy.
        When they had granted him the exercise of kingship of the gods,
        When they had given him dominion over the gods of heaven and underworld, (100)
        Anshar pronounced supreme his name, Asarluhi, saying:

        "Let us do obeisance at the mention of his name,
        To his utterance let the gods give heed,
        Let his command be supreme above and below!
        Most exalted be the Son, our avenger;
        Let his sovereignty be surpassing, having no rival.
        May he shepherd the black-headed ones, his creatures.
        To the end of days, without forgetting, let them acclaim his ways.
        May he establish for his fathers the great food-offerings; (110)
        Their support they shall furnish, shall tend their sanctuaries.
        May he cause incense to be smelled, . . . their spells,
        Make a likeness on earth of what he has wrought in heaven.
        May he order the black-headed to revere him,
        May the subjects ever bear in mind to speak of their god,
        And may they at his word pay heed to the goddess.
        May food-offerings be borne for their gods and goddesses.
        Without fail let them support their gods!
        Their lands let them improve, build their shrines,
        Let the black-headed wait on their gods. (120)
        As for us, by however many names we pronounce, he is our god!
        Let us then proclaim his fifty names:..."

        http://www.theologywebsite.com/etext/enuma/enuma.shtml

        ## The 600 Anuna-gods build Esagila up - the god of the Jews comes down. Even their divine status is reduced. Which agrees with the likelihood that Nimrod in 10.8-12 is a reduced version of the god Ninurta.
        The Flood is followed by Noah's discovery (?) of wine, followed by the Table of the Nations in 10 - after which comes the Tower. Marduk slays Tiamat the Divine Sea, Babylon is built, and the gods feast in Esagila. Despite the significant differences in order & content between Enuma Elish 6 & Genesis 6.5-11.9, the similarities are equally remarkable.
        Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 02-15-2015, 10:12 PM.

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