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Will the real date of the Exodus please stand out.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    It is a lot easier to argue Moses never existed and is created character, but neither extreme is likely the case.
    ??? Do you find it much, much harder--maybe impossible--to argue the Bible reliably reported the exodus?
    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

    [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
      ??? Do you find it much, much harder--maybe impossible--to argue the Bible reliably reported the exodus?
      By the evidence the Bible is not a reliable history of the events described as the Exodus. It is most likely that the series of events described in the Bible did not take place.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
        Are you arguing from silence?
        The issue of silence is the lack of archealogical evidence to justify anything approximating the remote accuracy of the Genesis account.

        Actually it is likely that some events, and some migrations during times of the collapse and possibly near collapse of Egyptian kingdoms contribute to the development of these legends and myths.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          The issue of silence is the lack of archealogical evidence to justify anything approximating the remote accuracy of the Genesis account.

          Actually it is likely that some events, and some migrations during times of the collapse and possibly near collapse of Egyptian kingdoms contribute to the development of these legends and myths.
          I've mentioned this before, but maybe you forgot. Isn't it so that once upon time there was no evidence of the Hittite people. Archaeologists declared that it didn't ever exist. Lo and behold, one day evidence did start to turn up. Now many museums proudly display Hittite artifices.
          The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

          [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
            I've mentioned this before, but maybe you forgot. Isn't it so that once upon time there was no evidence of the Hittite people. Archaeologists declared that it didn't ever exist. Lo and behold, one day evidence did start to turn up. Now many museums proudly display Hittite artifices.
            You may have mentioned, or maybe not, but 'So what?!?!!??!'

            Once upon a time . . . better describes the evidence available for dating and confirming the events described. Yes, there are archealogical discoveries that confirm some events, and peoples recorded in the Bible, but the scale of the search for evidence and dating the Exodus accounts is by all accounts huge, and has scoured all possible sources. All that has been found is a lot of evidence that questions the account as remotely accurate, and still speculation only concerning dates and evidence of the events recorded in Bible.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #51
              Not true. Possible traces in Arabia are inaccessible.
              Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Adam View Post
                Not true. Possible traces in Arabia are inaccessible.
                Traces? Traces of what?!?!?!?!
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Evidence of what you posted about seven days earlier. Evidence of the thread title. How bad is your Alzheimer's now?
                  Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Adam View Post
                    How bad is your Alzheimer's now?
                    Moderated By: Bill the Cat



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                    That's too far Adam.

                    ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                    Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

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                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Adam View Post
                      Not true. Possible traces in Arabia are inaccessible.
                      Actually I disagree that Arabia has been inaccessible in recent history.

                      Source: http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/exodus/searching-for-biblical-mt-sinai/


                      Where is Mt. Sinai? At a 2013 colloquium in Israel, an international group of scholars debated the question. At the center of the debate was Har Karkom, a mountain ridge in the Negev Desert that archaeologist Emmanuel Anati believes to be the Biblical Mt. Sinai. Or could Mt. Sinai be in Saudia Arabia, where Moses was thought to have fled after escaping Egypt? In “Where Is Mount Sinai? The Case for Har Karkom and the Case for Saudia Arabia” in the March/April 2014 issue of BAR, Hershel Shanks examines these candidates.
                      Biblical Mt. Sinai has never been identified archaeologically with any scholarly consensus, though several sites have been considered. According to Shanks, none of the scholars who attended the colloquium in Israel discussed the traditional location of Mt. Sinai—the mountain called Jebel Musa looming over St. Catherine’s Monastery in the southern Sinai. Jebel Musa’s identification as Mt. Sinai developed in the early Byzantine period with the spread of monasticism into the Sinai desert. Curiously, no Exodus-related archaeological remains have been recovered in the Sinai Peninsula—through which the Israelites must have traveled out of Egypt—dating to the traditional period of the Exodus, around 1200 B.C.E.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      There have been many archeaological expeditions over the years exploring possible evidence and routes of Exodus.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        Two problems here: (1) The Egyptian hieroglyphics and Babylonian tablets are original records at the time the events are claimed to take place.
                        If I may niggle a bit: some of them are. The Birth-Legend of Sargon says his mother was a hierodule, and that he was found by a river by a certain Aqqi. This may all be true, but it is very like other legends of great rulers discovered as foundlings on or near water. Even with seemingly straightforward texts like the Sennacherib Prism that contains an account of Sennacherib's campaign against Judah, it seems highly likely that the numbers at least are inflated, for the sake of making a theological point: the gods of Assyria are greater than the god of the Jews. The Cyrus Cylinder relates a real event, the taking, by Cyrus II, of the city of Babylon; but it is strongly propagandistic, painting the defeated Nabonidus as a monster of impiety, and Cyrus himself as the pious restorer to their shrines of the gods of Babylon.

                        The cuneiform tablets present several features that are much more familiar from the Old Testament. They present problems of interpretation, dating, theology, editing, source-criticism, legend-formation, literary motifs and their use, just as the OT does. Some texts that used to be taken for sober history, are better understood as historiography. Sargon the Great is historical, but all the texts about him are not. He is usually dated in the 2200s - the date accepted a century ago was 3800 or so, on the strength of a calculation found in a text from a building deposit laid down in the reign of Nabonidus (555-538). The Epic of Gilgamesh is known to have been edited - its 11th tablet contains a well-known Flood legend that very probably influenced that in Genesis. The Flood legend in Gilgamesh is itself related to a Sumerian Flood legend, and to a text known as the Atra-hasis legend. The narrative of Solomon's building of the Temple has been estimated to have over 20 similarities to the account of Gudea's building of a temple to the god Ningirsu. So there more than a few points of contact between these cultures, and a fair amount of what is thought of as typically Old Testamental - sometimes to its discredit - turns out to be part of a shared body of ideas about the world.
                        Exodus and the rest of the Pentateuch is a compilation that has been edited, redacted, added to from earlier older non-Hebrew sources. nothing in the Pentateuch can be dated before ~700 BCE. (2) Concerning the evidence of ancient history, nothing is proven nor disproven. In fact it is illogical and irrational to attempt to disprove anything in this context. I can claim that Moses was an alien, and some reference in the OT describe alien spacecraft and you could not prove me wrong. The question is are individual sources corroborated with other sources and archealogical evidence. The fact is most of Exodus cannot be corroborated with outside sources and archealogical evidence.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Actually I disagree that Arabia has been inaccessible in recent history.

                          Source: http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/exodus/searching-for-biblical-mt-sinai/


                          Where is Mt. Sinai? At a 2013 colloquium in Israel, an international group of scholars debated the question. At the center of the debate was Har Karkom, a mountain ridge in the Negev Desert that archaeologist Emmanuel Anati believes to be the Biblical Mt. Sinai. Or could Mt. Sinai be in Saudia Arabia, where Moses was thought to have fled after escaping Egypt? In “Where Is Mount Sinai? The Case for Har Karkom and the Case for Saudia Arabia” in the March/April 2014 issue of BAR, Hershel Shanks examines these candidates.
                          Biblical Mt. Sinai has never been identified archaeologically with any scholarly consensus, though several sites have been considered. According to Shanks, none of the scholars who attended the colloquium in Israel discussed the traditional location of Mt. Sinai—the mountain called Jebel Musa looming over St. Catherine’s Monastery in the southern Sinai. Jebel Musa’s identification as Mt. Sinai developed in the early Byzantine period with the spread of monasticism into the Sinai desert. Curiously, no Exodus-related archaeological remains have been recovered in the Sinai Peninsula—through which the Israelites must have traveled out of Egypt—dating to the traditional period of the Exodus, around 1200 B.C.E.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          There have been many archeaological expeditions over the years exploring possible evidence and routes of Exodus.
                          Pere Roland de Vaux identified six different suggested identities for Sinai. I like his theory that the Exodus was in fact at least two Exoduses, with different routes, at different times. If there is anything in the suggestion, that may explain the inconsistencies in the canonical texts: they are recording the traditions of more than one event.

                          What kind of remains would the desert yield after 3200-3500 years ?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                            If I may niggle a bit: some of them are. The Birth-Legend of Sargon says his mother was a hierodule, and that he was found by a river by a certain Aqqi. This may all be true, but it is very like other legends of great rulers discovered as foundlings on or near water. Even with seemingly straightforward texts like the Sennacherib Prism that contains an account of Sennacherib's campaign against Judah, it seems highly likely that the numbers at least are inflated, for the sake of making a theological point: the gods of Assyria are greater than the god of the Jews. The Cyrus Cylinder relates a real event, the taking, by Cyrus II, of the city of Babylon; but it is strongly propagandistic, painting the defeated Nabonidus as a monster of impiety, and Cyrus himself as the pious restorer to their shrines of the gods of Babylon.

                            The cuneiform tablets present several features that are much more familiar from the Old Testament. They present problems of interpretation, dating, theology, editing, source-criticism, legend-formation, literary motifs and their use, just as the OT does. Some texts that used to be taken for sober history, are better understood as historiography. Sargon the Great is historical, but all the texts about him are not. He is usually dated in the 2200s - the date accepted a century ago was 3800 or so, on the strength of a calculation found in a text from a building deposit laid down in the reign of Nabonidus (555-538). The Epic of Gilgamesh is known to have been edited - its 11th tablet contains a well-known Flood legend that very probably influenced that in Genesis. The Flood legend in Gilgamesh is itself related to a Sumerian Flood legend, and to a text known as the Atra-hasis legend. The narrative of Solomon's building of the Temple has been estimated to have over 20 similarities to the account of Gudea's building of a temple to the god Ningirsu. So there more than a few points of contact between these cultures, and a fair amount of what is thought of as typically Old Testamental - sometimes to its discredit - turns out to be part of a shared body of ideas about the world.
                            It remains that the bulk of Egyptian hieroglyphics Babylonian are indeed mundane records of events, government records, and descriptions of battles, and such things as geneology. Is it always accurate and true? No, records as throughout history are often colored by a biased perspective, and the winners do most often write the history.

                            Of course, the writings do include myths, legends, and religious writings that may be interwoven with the factual records like all ancient cultures, but the basis of these record is factual over time they were written, much of it rather mundane records.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                              Pere Roland de Vaux identified six different suggested identities for Sinai. I like his theory that the Exodus was in fact at least two Exoduses, with different routes, at different times. If there is anything in the suggestion, that may explain the inconsistencies in the canonical texts: they are recording the traditions of more than one event.
                              I will not comment at present Pere Roland de Vaux, because I only know him through his work on Qumran. If you have a reference I would like to see it concerning Exodus,

                              The descriptions in Exodus refer to known well used trading routes in Sinai, and yes smaller groups likely did move, migrate, and trade through this region over the millennia, including cites of known communities that were mostly sheep and goat herding cultures.

                              What kind of remains would the desert yield after 3200-3500 years ?
                              Cemeteries would likely be present, and sites of large encampments, which are absent. The Silk Road is an interesting parallel of similar age as to what is found in the Sinai, and similar patterns of trading routes and small migrations are evident.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                There are 5 dates for the Exodus.
                                ...
                                About 1540 BCE a very early date based on Acts 13:16-22 (with 1 Kings 2:11) calc 570 years.
                                About 2450 BCE a very early date - an archaeological based date. (I've not read the book.)

                                Here is what I know, the 1 Kings 6:1 has been given different values, the LXX has 440 years for example.
                                Roman Martyrology nearly agrees with 1540 BC date, namely 1510 BC. Probably one difference between Roman and Byzantine LXX based chronologies.

                                As for 2450 BC, 1510 could be misdated to that if carbon level at the time was such as to give 940 years for free.

                                Source: https://www.math.upenn.edu/~deturck/m170/c14/carbdate.html

                                To find the percent of Carbon 14 remaining after a given number of years, type in the number of years and click on Calculate.

                                To find the years that have elapsed from how much Carbon 14 remains, type in the C 14 percent and click on Calculate.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                Using former ... 89.252%.

                                I wonder what exact archaeological thing has been so dated.

                                I think C14 level was already higher, and misdatable to 1700 or so BC. (1700-1510=190, 97.728%).

                                I base that "1700 or so BC" on the case for the Pharao with the bloodthirsty decree being Amenemhet III, conventually dated as sth like 1700 BC.

                                Remember, the C14 level cannot rise too steeply between Exodus and Christ, and by Christ, unless we accept a shorter chronology for NT history (I have seen sn make a case for us being in 1700's AD!), C14 level must already be up at c. 100%.
                                http://notontimsblogroundhere.blogspot.fr/p/apologetics-section.html

                                Thanks, Sparko, for telling how I add the link here!

                                Comment

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