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Thread: Will the real date of the Exodus please stand out.

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    tWebber Boxing Pythagoras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanriver View Post
    as far as the Bible goes, the name "Rameses (or Ramses) was in use a few hundred years before the Exodus account (remember the Joseph story)
    In Genesis 47:11 And Joseph placed his father and his brethren, and gave them a possession in the land of Egypt, in the best of the land, in the land of Rameses, as Pharaoh had commanded.
    So we cannot assume the city was named after Rameses II (The Great)
    Personally, I would argue that the mention of Rameses in Gen 47:11 is an anachronism.

    and the cities could have been built under Rameses I (that would be grandfather of Rameses II, not father
    This is a possibility, but even so, it would only serve to push the Exodus to the beginning of the 13th Century BCE. The earlier dates from the OP would still seem to have trouble in this regard.
    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every hidden truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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    tWebber jordanriver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    Personally, I would argue that the mention of Rameses in Gen 47:11 is an anachronism.

    This is a possibility, but even so, it would only serve to push the Exodus to the beginning of the 13th Century BCE. The earlier dates from the OP would still seem to have trouble in this regard.
    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/492674/Re

    Ra worship had been around since 4th Dynasty (2575-2465),

    ...so a land of Ra , or land "begotten" of Ra (land of Rameses) was most likely IMHO, around long before the Ramesside Kings came along,
    ...probably even before Thutmose pharoahs
    To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

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    tWebber Boxing Pythagoras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanriver View Post
    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/492674/Re

    Ra worship had been around since 4th Dynasty (2575-2465),

    ...so a land of Ra , or land "begotten" of Ra (land of Rameses) was most likely IMHO, around long before the Ramesside Kings came along,
    ...probably even before Thutmose pharoahs
    The fact that Ra was worshiped does not imply that the name "Rameses" was attached to any cities prior to the Ramesside kings. Do you know of any evidence that would link that name to any cities prior to the reign of Rameses I?
    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every hidden truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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    tWebber jordanriver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    The fact that Ra was worshiped does not imply that the name "Rameses" was attached to any cities prior to the Ramesside kings. Do you know of any evidence that would link that name to any cities prior to the reign of Rameses I?
    I got about 8 or 9 Ancient Egypt books.
    Don't recall, but I never looked that up before. ..
    ...or maybe I did? Don't remember. ..
    I can look.
    but, what would you call a city if you were building it in the land of Rameses?
    To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

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    tWebber Boxing Pythagoras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanriver View Post
    I got about 8 or 9 Ancient Egypt books.
    Don't recall, but I never looked that up before. ..
    ...or maybe I did? Don't remember. ..
    I can look.
    but, what would you call a city if you were building it in the land of Rameses?
    I'll expand it beyond cities-- do you know of any evidence that any area was referred to as "the land of Rameses" or similar prior to the Ramesside kings?
    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every hidden truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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    tWebber jordanriver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    I'll expand it beyond cities-- do you know of any evidence that any area was referred to as "the land of Rameses" or similar prior to the Ramesside kings?
    I cited Genesis time of Joseph.
    But you called it anachronism.
    To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

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    tWebber Boxing Pythagoras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanriver View Post
    I cited Genesis time of Joseph.
    But you called it anachronism.
    Right-- since the question is as regards whether the reference in Gen 47:11 is anachronistic, I'm wondering if there's any evidence which could corroborate the context in Genesis. Do any Egyptological sources make reference to any lands or cities by the name "Rameses" prior to the Ramesside kings?
    "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every hidden truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
    --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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    tWebber jordanriver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    Right-- since the question is as regards whether the reference in Gen 47:11 is anachronistic, I'm wondering if there's any evidence which could corroborate the context in Genesis. Do any Egyptological sources make reference to any lands or cities by the name "Rameses" prior to the Ramesside kings?
    when I get home I can check my humble book shelves.
    ...probably not. Haven't had any luck actually 'proving' Exodus account
    To say that crony capitalism is not true/free market capitalism, is like saying a grand slam is not true baseball, or like saying scoring a touchdown is not true American football ...Stefan Mykhaylo D

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    tWebber
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    Wikipedia mentions that the locality of the city of Ramasses absorbed the city Avaris:
    Avaris was absorbed into the new city of Pi-Ramesses constructed by Ramesses II (1279 1213 BC) of the Nineteenth dynasty when he moved the capital from Thebes back to the Delta.
    This point goes well with the proposal that the Exodus around the time when Egypt was ruled by the Hyksos. I had heard before of the Hyksos rule but had not heard that the capital was in the Pi-Ramasses area. (Please note that my overall reading about Egypt and the Exodus are limited. I am piecing together rather limited information.) To say Pi-Ramasses was not occupied until 1200s excludes the previous history of the territory. It would be natural for the Hebrews to equate the name of Pi-Ramasses with the Avaris location, as a means of communicating in more modern terms the locality of a city.
    With the articles I posted earlier (one of which, at least, refers to scholarly articles), the fit of the exodus to around 1585 is much better in accord with archaeological finds. It seems relevant then to accept the timing which best fits our knowledge -- scholarly and scientific study is essentially focused on bringing out the most logical associations.
    It seems to go against logic to say that the mere use of a modernized name is sufficient to overcome the evidence pointing to good time calculation which affirms the possibility, for example, that the biblical association of Israel with the fall of Jericho is reasonable to accept.
    Last edited by mikewhitney; 12-27-2014 at 09:10 PM.

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    Some argue that the traditional Ancient Egyptian chronology is incorrect.
    For example, a date of 1540 B.C. is traditionally said to be 17/18th dynasty.
    Some revised chronology says that 1540 may be 12th dynasty.
    https://answersingenesis.org/archaeo...le-unreliable/

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