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Will the real date of the Exodus please stand out.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
    What evidence we have so far appears to suggest that Shunyadragon is not the most intelligent and knowledgeable poster in TWeb.
    Nice ad hominem, prove him wrong.
    "Look at what happened after the European peoples succeeded in removing the clergy from public life and restricting them to their churches. They built up human being promoted enlightenment, creativity and rebellion. States which are based on religion confine their people in the circle of faith and fear."-Raif Badawi

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Secular Liberation View Post
      Nice ad hominem, prove him wrong.
      1) Prove an opinion (mine)? Do you not understand what this phrase means, "Evidence suggests [opinion]"?

      2) The Bible is itself evidence. However, I concede that Shuny and others can dismiss it out of hand and not be unreasonable.
      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

      [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
        1) Prove an opinion (mine)? Do you not understand what this phrase means, "Evidence suggests [opinion]"?

        2) The Bible is itself evidence. However, I concede that Shuny and others can dismiss it out of hand and not be unreasonable.
        The Bible is not evidence, in the same way historians never took the Trojan War seriously until its ruins were discovered through secular research.
        "Look at what happened after the European peoples succeeded in removing the clergy from public life and restricting them to their churches. They built up human being promoted enlightenment, creativity and rebellion. States which are based on religion confine their people in the circle of faith and fear."-Raif Badawi

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Secular Liberation View Post
          The Bible is not evidence, in the same way historians never took the Trojan War seriously until its ruins were discovered through secular research.
          The Bible should be given at least the consideration equal to Egyptian hieroglyphics or Babylonian tablets until proven otherwise, even if you discount the books with accounts of Gods, angels and Satan. The Bible is a compilation of past writings, so to be fair each book should be individually treated as a historical resource to be corroborated or disproven.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Joel View Post
            You mean other than the ancient text that is the Bible?
            I do not consider the ancient text of any ancient religion evidence unless supported by archeological evidence outside the Bible. There are extensive hieroglyphics throughout the possible history of this event, and no record, nor is their any evidence of the army in any possible crossing in the Bible. The location, possibly a minor event, is actually in something called 'Sea of Reeds.'
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              I do not consider the ancient text of any ancient religion evidence unless supported by archeological evidence outside the Bible. There are extensive hieroglyphics throughout the possible history of this event, and no record, nor is their any evidence of the army in any possible crossing in the Bible. The location, possibly a minor event, is actually in something called 'Sea of Reeds.'
              My understanding of what you mean by the phrase, "supported by archeological evidence outside the Bible", is that it includes hieroglyphics and other forms of writing on things like papyruses and stone tablets.
              The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

              [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                1) Prove an opinion (mine)? Do you not understand what this phrase means, "Evidence suggests [opinion]"?

                2) The Bible is itself evidence. However, I concede that Shuny and others can dismiss it out of hand and not be unreasonable.
                I do not dismiss it 'out of hand,' because there are events and person in the Bible that are documented by evidence outside the Bible. The compilation of the text of the Bible contains documented fact, documented and undocumented persons, fiction, myth, and testimony of supported and unsupported events. This is the normal of many of the ancient texts that are the result of compilation, editing, reducted, and created over time..
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-25-2016, 09:26 PM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                  My understanding of what you mean by the phrase, "supported by archeological evidence outside the Bible", is that it includes hieroglyphics and other forms of writing on things like papyruses and stone tablets.
                  Yes, that includes the hieroglyphics and papyruses found dateable to different periods of Egyptian history. These references do not included definable evidence to support these events in Egyptian history/ The claim of evidence often cited is highly interpretive and not specific.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Yes, that includes the hieroglyphics and papyruses found dateable to different periods of Egyptian history. These references do not included definable evidence to support these events in Egyptian history/ The claim of evidence often cited is highly interpretive and not specific.
                    By "definable" I think you mean "definite."
                    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                    [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Super Cow View Post
                      The Bible should be given at least the consideration equal to Egyptian hieroglyphics or Babylonian tablets until proven otherwise, even if you discount the books with accounts of Gods, angels and Satan. The Bible is a compilation of past writings, so to be fair each book should be individually treated as a historical resource to be corroborated or disproven.
                      Two problems here: (1) The Egyptian hieroglyphics and Babylonian tablets are original records at the time the events are claimed to take place. Exodus and the rest of the Pentateuch is a compilation that has been edited, redacted, added to from earlier older non-Hebrew sources. nothing in the Pentateuch can be dated before ~700 BCE. (2) Concerning the evidence of ancient history, nothing is proven nor disproven. In fact it is illogical and irrational to attempt to disprove anything in this context. I can claim that Moses was an alien, and some reference in the OT describe alien spacecraft and you could not prove me wrong. The question is are individual sources corroborated with other sources and archealogical evidence. The fact is most of Exodus cannot be corroborated with outside sources and archealogical evidence.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                        By "definable" I think you mean "definite."
                        Definable may not translate to definite. The physical evidence such as the pyramid is definite evidence, but not all evidence is that 'definite.' I consider definable as evidence where there is a relationship between the evidence and the events is definable, which is not always conclusive evidence. The degree of the relationship may vary, for example the corroborated evidence for establishing the date of the Exodus, which is not definite.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          Two problems here: (1) The Egyptian hieroglyphics and Babylonian tablets are original records at the time the events are claimed to take place. Exodus and the rest of the Pentateuch is a compilation that has been edited, redacted, added to from earlier older non-Hebrew sources. nothing in the Pentateuch can be dated before ~700 BCE. (2) Concerning the evidence of ancient history, nothing is proven nor disproven. In fact it is illogical and irrational to attempt to disprove anything in this context. I can claim that Moses was an alien, and some reference in the OT describe alien spacecraft and you could not prove me wrong. The question is are individual sources corroborated with other sources and archealogical evidence. The fact is most of Exodus cannot be corroborated with outside sources and archealogical evidence.
                          Are you arguing from silence?
                          The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                          [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            Definable may not translate to definite. The physical evidence such as the pyramid is definite evidence, but not all evidence is that 'definite.' I consider definable as evidence where there is a relationship between the evidence and the events is definable, which is not always conclusive evidence. The degree of the relationship may vary, for example the corroborated evidence for establishing the date of the Exodus, which is not definite.
                            I assume you are not babbling, so I will ask what you mean by "definable" in that post. Oh! Maybe you are joking!
                            The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                            [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Two problems here: (1) The Egyptian hieroglyphics and Babylonian tablets are original records at the time the events are claimed to take place. Exodus and the rest of the Pentateuch is a compilation that has been edited, redacted, added to from earlier older non-Hebrew sources. nothing in the Pentateuch can be dated before ~700 BCE. (2) Concerning the evidence of ancient history, nothing is proven nor disproven. In fact it is illogical and irrational to attempt to disprove anything in this context. I can claim that Moses was an alien, and some reference in the OT describe alien spacecraft and you could not prove me wrong. The question is are individual sources corroborated with other sources and archealogical evidence. The fact is most of Exodus cannot be corroborated with outside sources and archealogical evidence.
                              You may be reasonably confident that the hieroglyphics were written close to the time of the events, but there is no more confidence in their accuracy. The events could have been exaggerated, or fabricated to elevate the Pharaoh. (Or in the case of Hatshepsut, records and artifacts destroyed and her legacy deliberately denigrated after her passing) The nature of scrolls naturally gives them a shorter lifespan than rock carvings, but to say they have no historical value unless another source confirms them is incorrect. There is a consistent record of the method and accuracy of copying for the past 2000 years, and there is no reason to assume that the methods were any less methodical and accurate in the preceding 1500 years to that.

                              You can claim that Moses was an alien, and perhaps I could not prove you wrong, anymore than the "experts" on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens, but I could prove you incorrect on whether the Old Testament actually claims that fact. Most of the Pentateuch cannot be corroborated as it is simply too old. Small portions can be weakly supported, however, and in the absence of solid contradictions it should be at least a reference point. This is why dating these events are so important, because if you are a few hundred years out of synch, everything appears to be contradictory evidence.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Super Cow View Post
                                You may be reasonably confident that the hieroglyphics were written close to the time of the events, but there is no more confidence in their accuracy.
                                There is great confidence in many of the writings recording the dates of rulers, their names, and mush of the records of what took place. Many of these were mundane records of Egypt over thousands of years, and have been confirmed by archealogical evidence. The writings in the tombs can clearly dated to the time the tombs were built, and there a lot of other dating methods that corroborate the date of the writings.

                                The events could have been exaggerated, or fabricated to elevate the Pharaoh. (Or in the case of Hatshepsut, records and artifacts destroyed and her legacy deliberately denigrated after her passing) The nature of scrolls naturally gives them a shorter lifespan than rock carvings, but to say they have no historical value unless another source confirms them is incorrect. There is a consistent record of the method and accuracy of copying for the past 2000 years, and there is no reason to assume that the methods were any less methodical and accurate in the preceding 1500 years to that.
                                These factors and problems are a given when some writings fail to corroborate with other archealogical evidence, and guess what as you indicated the problems are often resolved with time. Nonetheless you are not addressing the volumes of records of Egyptian writings that are corroborated and recognized as legitimate records of people and events of Egyptian history.

                                You are clearly over stating the negative. The Egyptian records are far and above more reliable than Exodus, because they can be dated cross referenced with different dating methods, and the thousands of written record found covering thousands of years. We have nothing, zip. nada. negatory concerning written records of Exodus at any of the times it was supposedly written, and we have a great deal of contradictory evidence for what the record of Exodus describes.

                                You can claim that Moses was an alien, and perhaps I could not prove you wrong, anymore than the "experts" on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens, but I could prove you incorrect on whether the Old Testament actually claims that fact. Most of the Pentateuch cannot be corroborated as it is simply too old. Small portions can be weakly supported, however, and in the absence of solid contradictions it should be at least a reference point. This is why dating these events are so important, because if you are a few hundred years out of synch, everything appears to be contradictory evidence.
                                It is a lot easier to argue Moses never existed and is created character, but neither extreme is likely the case.
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-01-2016, 09:56 PM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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