Originally posted by Truthseeker
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Find out if Caesar crossed the Rubicon or threw a dollar across it.
This is the forum where world history, in general, can be discussed. Since the WH201, like the other fora in the World History department, is not limited to participation along lines of theology, all may post here.
Please keep the Campus Decorum in mind when posting here--while 'belief' restrictions are not in place, common decency is.
The Tweb rules are in force . . . we're watching you.
Forum Rules: Here
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Will the real date of the Exodus please stand out.
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"Look at what happened after the European peoples succeeded in removing the clergy from public life and restricting them to their churches. They built up human being promoted enlightenment, creativity and rebellion. States which are based on religion confine their people in the circle of faith and fear."-Raif Badawi
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Originally posted by Secular Liberation View PostNice ad hominem, prove him wrong.
2) The Bible is itself evidence. However, I concede that Shuny and others can dismiss it out of hand and not be unreasonable.
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Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post1) Prove an opinion (mine)? Do you not understand what this phrase means, "Evidence suggests [opinion]"?
2) The Bible is itself evidence. However, I concede that Shuny and others can dismiss it out of hand and not be unreasonable."Look at what happened after the European peoples succeeded in removing the clergy from public life and restricting them to their churches. They built up human being promoted enlightenment, creativity and rebellion. States which are based on religion confine their people in the circle of faith and fear."-Raif Badawi
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Originally posted by Secular Liberation View PostThe Bible is not evidence, in the same way historians never took the Trojan War seriously until its ruins were discovered through secular research.
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Originally posted by Joel View PostYou mean other than the ancient text that is the Bible?
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI do not consider the ancient text of any ancient religion evidence unless supported by archeological evidence outside the Bible. There are extensive hieroglyphics throughout the possible history of this event, and no record, nor is their any evidence of the army in any possible crossing in the Bible. The location, possibly a minor event, is actually in something called 'Sea of Reeds.'
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Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post1) Prove an opinion (mine)? Do you not understand what this phrase means, "Evidence suggests [opinion]"?
2) The Bible is itself evidence. However, I concede that Shuny and others can dismiss it out of hand and not be unreasonable.Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-25-2016, 09:26 PM.
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Originally posted by Truthseeker View PostMy understanding of what you mean by the phrase, "supported by archeological evidence outside the Bible", is that it includes hieroglyphics and other forms of writing on things like papyruses and stone tablets.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYes, that includes the hieroglyphics and papyruses found dateable to different periods of Egyptian history. These references do not included definable evidence to support these events in Egyptian history/ The claim of evidence often cited is highly interpretive and not specific.
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Originally posted by Super Cow View PostThe Bible should be given at least the consideration equal to Egyptian hieroglyphics or Babylonian tablets until proven otherwise, even if you discount the books with accounts of Gods, angels and Satan. The Bible is a compilation of past writings, so to be fair each book should be individually treated as a historical resource to be corroborated or disproven.
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Originally posted by Truthseeker View PostBy "definable" I think you mean "definite."
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostTwo problems here: (1) The Egyptian hieroglyphics and Babylonian tablets are original records at the time the events are claimed to take place. Exodus and the rest of the Pentateuch is a compilation that has been edited, redacted, added to from earlier older non-Hebrew sources. nothing in the Pentateuch can be dated before ~700 BCE. (2) Concerning the evidence of ancient history, nothing is proven nor disproven. In fact it is illogical and irrational to attempt to disprove anything in this context. I can claim that Moses was an alien, and some reference in the OT describe alien spacecraft and you could not prove me wrong. The question is are individual sources corroborated with other sources and archealogical evidence. The fact is most of Exodus cannot be corroborated with outside sources and archealogical evidence.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostDefinable may not translate to definite. The physical evidence such as the pyramid is definite evidence, but not all evidence is that 'definite.' I consider definable as evidence where there is a relationship between the evidence and the events is definable, which is not always conclusive evidence. The degree of the relationship may vary, for example the corroborated evidence for establishing the date of the Exodus, which is not definite.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostTwo problems here: (1) The Egyptian hieroglyphics and Babylonian tablets are original records at the time the events are claimed to take place. Exodus and the rest of the Pentateuch is a compilation that has been edited, redacted, added to from earlier older non-Hebrew sources. nothing in the Pentateuch can be dated before ~700 BCE. (2) Concerning the evidence of ancient history, nothing is proven nor disproven. In fact it is illogical and irrational to attempt to disprove anything in this context. I can claim that Moses was an alien, and some reference in the OT describe alien spacecraft and you could not prove me wrong. The question is are individual sources corroborated with other sources and archealogical evidence. The fact is most of Exodus cannot be corroborated with outside sources and archealogical evidence.
You can claim that Moses was an alien, and perhaps I could not prove you wrong, anymore than the "experts" on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens, but I could prove you incorrect on whether the Old Testament actually claims that fact. Most of the Pentateuch cannot be corroborated as it is simply too old. Small portions can be weakly supported, however, and in the absence of solid contradictions it should be at least a reference point. This is why dating these events are so important, because if you are a few hundred years out of synch, everything appears to be contradictory evidence.
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Originally posted by Super Cow View PostYou may be reasonably confident that the hieroglyphics were written close to the time of the events, but there is no more confidence in their accuracy.
The events could have been exaggerated, or fabricated to elevate the Pharaoh. (Or in the case of Hatshepsut, records and artifacts destroyed and her legacy deliberately denigrated after her passing) The nature of scrolls naturally gives them a shorter lifespan than rock carvings, but to say they have no historical value unless another source confirms them is incorrect. There is a consistent record of the method and accuracy of copying for the past 2000 years, and there is no reason to assume that the methods were any less methodical and accurate in the preceding 1500 years to that.
You are clearly over stating the negative. The Egyptian records are far and above more reliable than Exodus, because they can be dated cross referenced with different dating methods, and the thousands of written record found covering thousands of years. We have nothing, zip. nada. negatory concerning written records of Exodus at any of the times it was supposedly written, and we have a great deal of contradictory evidence for what the record of Exodus describes.
You can claim that Moses was an alien, and perhaps I could not prove you wrong, anymore than the "experts" on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens, but I could prove you incorrect on whether the Old Testament actually claims that fact. Most of the Pentateuch cannot be corroborated as it is simply too old. Small portions can be weakly supported, however, and in the absence of solid contradictions it should be at least a reference point. This is why dating these events are so important, because if you are a few hundred years out of synch, everything appears to be contradictory evidence.Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-01-2016, 09:56 PM.
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