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Welcome to Comp Religions, this is where the sights and sounds of the many world religions come together in a big World's Fair type atmosphere, without those delicious funnel cakes.

World Religions is a theist only type place, but that does not exclude certain religionists who practice non-theistic faiths ala Buddhism. If you are not sure, ask a moderator.

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  • #76
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    I am sure many have, just as have many Christians, Jews, and others.
    Now, earlier you have said that
    When I think of idolatry, I think of worshipping something man-made or something created instead of the creator. I don't think Muslims do this; rather I think their focus on the oneness and transcendence of God is pretty much the opposite of idolatry.
    How do you know that their worship of Allah is not idolatry?

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
      Now, earlier you have said that

      How do you know that their worship of Allah is not idolatry?
      I am sure it is for many, as I have already said it is also for some Christians, Jews, etc. But, if they are true to their belief in only one God, who is all merciful and utterly transcendent, that does not sound like idolatry. The belief in one, utterly transcendent God is pretty much the opposite of idolatry. Such a God is not confused with a created or man-made substitute for God, which would not be a transcendent God, and which would not be one for there are indeed many man-made images and conceptions of God.
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        Such a God is not confused with a created or man-made substitute for God, which would not be a transcendent God
        So man cannot conceive of a god and regard him as transcendent?

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
          So man cannot conceive of a god and regard him as transcendent?
          If man conceives of a god, merely as the product of one's imagination, it is by definition not transcendent but the product of our imagination.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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          • #80
            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            If man conceives of a god, merely as the product of one's imagination, it is by definition not transcendent but the product of our imagination.
            Why not? What if he sincerely believes in it? What is the difference between him and a Muslim with respect to true belief in a transcendent god?

            How do you know the Muslim's god is not a product of his imagination?

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
              Why not?
              As I said, it is a matter of definition of the normal meaning of words.

              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
              What if he sincerely believes in it?
              Sincerity does not change the definitions of words. At least it should not.

              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
              What is the difference between him and a Muslim with respect to true belief in a transcendent god?
              If one believes in a truly transcendent God, then one does not believe merely in one's own conception of God as limited by one's own feeble imagination. I think you will find both Muslims and non-Muslims who do or do not believe in a truly transcendent God.

              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
              How do you know the Muslim's god is not a product of his imagination?
              Which Muslim? I only know a few and I would not speak of all as if they are all the same. Usually, all one needs to do to know if someone believes in a truly transcendent God is to speak with them about their belief in a transcendent God.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                If one believes in a truly transcendent God, then one does not believe merely in one's own conception of God as limited by one's own feeble imagination. I think you will find both Muslims and non-Muslims who do or do not believe in a truly transcendent God.

                Which Muslim? I only know a few and I would not speak of all as if they are all the same. Usually, all one needs to do to know if someone believes in a truly transcendent God is to speak with them about their belief in a transcendent God.
                If there exists a dichotomy between that which is a product of one's imagination, and that which one can truly believe in, please do establish it. Otherwise, I see no reason why someone could not conceive of a transcendant God and sincerely believe in it - where conception is as through a glass darkly, as ours is.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                  If there exists a dichotomy between that which is a product of one's imagination, and that which one can truly believe in, please do establish it. Otherwise, I see no reason why someone could not conceive of a transcendant God and sincerely believe in it - where conception is as through a glass darkly, as ours is.
                  The dichotomy is between that which is merely a product of one's imagination and that which transcends our ability to imagine. That dichotomy is merely a matter of definition. There is no necessary dichotomy between that which is a product of one's imagination and believing in that which one has imagined.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    The dichotomy is between that which is merely a product of one's imagination and that which transcends our ability to imagine. That dichotomy is merely a matter of definition. There is no necessary dichotomy between that which is a product of one's imagination and believing in that which one has imagined.
                    Which brings us back to the question as regards the God which Muslims believe in: how do you know He is truly transcendent and not a product of their imagination, ie. them believing in a God they call transcendent but not truly so?

                    You claim that "[usually], all one needs to do to know if someone believes in a truly transcendent God is to speak with them about their belief in a transcendent God." But if there is no dichotomy between that which is a product of one's imagination, and that which one can truly believe in, then how do you know?

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                      Which brings us back to the question as regards the God which Muslims believe in: how do you know He is truly transcendent and not a product of their imagination, ie. them believing in a God they call transcendent but not truly so?

                      You claim that "[usually], all one needs to do to know if someone believes in a truly transcendent God is to speak with them about their belief in a transcendent God." But if there is no dichotomy between that which is a product of one's imagination, and that which one can truly believe in, then how do you know?
                      Well, if one says that they believe God is one and truly transcendent and thereby greater than that which they can conceive and explain, and if I have no reason to doubt them based on their saying or doing anything contrary to that, I see no reason to doubt that they are telling the truth. I don't understand the difficulty you are having here. Should I believe rather that all Muslims are always lying all the time?
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        I agree with this, of course, but I think (deutero-)Isaiah was also speaking to the Jews of his day about their return from exile and the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem, which notably had a court of the Gentiles. It would not have been fair for Jesus to use this verse against the Jews of his own time, if Isaiah had only been speaking of a later reality. From the time of Abraham, Israel had a mission to the Gentiles which Jesus came to fulfill, but that does not mean that no one before Jesus was supposed to take up this mission.
                        I am good with that. There has always been salvation offered to the Jews first and then to the nations, and that focus turned more outwardly to the Gentiles when the Messiah was rejected by His own.


                        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                        • #87
                          Finally, we've arrived: you don't know, and you can't know.

                          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          Should I believe rather that all Muslims are always lying all the time?
                          Not at all, the alternative that they are mistaken could very well exist.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                            Finally, we've arrived: you don't know, and you can't know.
                            Nor have I ever pretended to know the secrets of the hearts of anyone, Jew, Christian, or Muslim.

                            Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                            Not at all, the alternative that they are mistaken could very well exist.
                            I am sure that we are all mistaken about many things.
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                              Nor have I ever pretended to know the secrets of the hearts of anyone, Jew, Christian, or Muslim.

                              I am sure that we are all mistaken about many things.
                              Considering the wide variation of beliefs over the millennia, and the fallibility of human affairs, the most likely scenario is that we are most likely wrong about most things, and that includes me.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                Considering the wide variation of beliefs over the millennia, and the fallibility of human affairs, the most likely scenario is that we are most likely wrong about most things, and that includes me.
                                You're wrong.






















































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