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Papa Francis prays facing Mecca in mosque

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  • #16
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    I think anyone who infers that the pope is specifically affirming Islam rather than Christianity or that he is promoting submission to Islam is probably mistaken.
    Yeah, I think that's probably the case too.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      Is there anything specific that you are objecting to here?
      I object to that act of worship in that specific situation and context. However, given the Catholic position that the Muslims adore the same "one, merciful God", in hindsight this should not have at all been surprising.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        Well, as I said, it makes a difference because its not like he looked for Mecca and then ritually turned in that direction. You'd have to go out of your way to turn a different direction NOT to pray in the direction of Mecca in a mosque, and that'd be a little weird.
        Perhaps. But is it not still "purposefully praying towards Mecca as part of inter-religious dialogue"?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
          I object to that act of worship in that specific situation and context. However, given the Catholic position that the Muslims adore the same "one, merciful God", in hindsight this should not have at all been surprising.
          Do you believe in one God or many gods? Do you think Muslims believe in one God but are mistakenly worshiping some kind of demon or something like that?
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Paprika View Post
            Perhaps. But is it not still "purposefully praying towards Mecca as part of inter-religious dialogue"?
            Possibly, but considering that God is everywhere present, in the long run, maybe it doesn't matter? I wonder if this is one of those eating meat offered to idols sort of thing (1 Cor 8). In the end, it doesn't matter in which direction he prayed, but I could see it being a stumbling block for the weak in the faith. Maybe the need for dialogue is more important than potential stumbling blocks though. I don't know.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
              Do you believe in one God or many gods? Do you think Muslims believe in one God but are mistakenly worshiping some kind of demon or something like that?
              He might not, but I certainly do.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                Do you believe in one God or many gods?
                For us there is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.

                Do you think Muslims believe in one God but are mistakenly worshiping some kind of demon or something like that?
                Certainly they believe in that there is one supreme being. What they actually worship is something about which I have not reached a firm conclusion.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                  For us there is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.

                  Certainly they believe in that there is one supreme being. What they actually worship is something about which I have not reached a firm conclusion.
                  So, even 'though you have not reached a firm conclusion about this question, you nonetheless object to those who have reached a firm conclusion? I don't want to put words in your mouth--is that a fair representation?
                  Last edited by robrecht; 12-27-2014, 10:27 AM.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    Possibly
                    Weren't you the one saying that the Pope "purposefully praying towards Mecca as part of inter-religious dialogue" would be a "big deal"?

                    but considering that God is everywhere present, in the long run, maybe it doesn't matter?...In the end, it doesn't matter in which direction he prayed, but I could see it being a stumbling block for the weak in the faith.
                    I do not see actions in an atomistic fashion; rather the meaning and significance of actions is intrinsically derived (not least) from the context. Hence, praying with a Muslim leader facing Mecca is not the same as praying in any old direction.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                      So, even 'though you have not reached a firm conclusion about this question, you nonetheless object to those who have reached a firm conclusion? Is that fair?
                      Why not? In general, that I have not reached a firm conclusion about a certain matter does not imply that I cannot accurately judge the conclusions reached by others: for example, in terms of coherence with other beliefs held.

                      With respect to this issue, I have reached a firm conclusion that what they worship is something other than what I do: its precise nature is at best tangential.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I find myself agreeing with Pap here in the sense that there cannot be any "meeting of the minds" between Christanity and other faiths.

                        I have huge issues with ecumenism.

                        And the god that Islam worships is not the God of Christianity in any way, shape, or form.


                        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                          Why not?
                          By asking if that was fair, I only meant, 'is that a fair representation of your position?

                          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                          In general, that I have not reached a firm conclusion about a certain matter does not imply that I cannot accurately judge the conclusions reached by others: for example, in terms of coherence with other beliefs held.
                          Depends. If you object to or condemn the behavior or beliefs of others, it typically does entail at least an implicit affirmation of your own contrary beliefs.

                          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                          With respect to this issue, I have reached a firm conclusion that what they worship is something other than what I do: its precise nature is at best tangential.
                          And by bowing his head and praying silently, in the presence of this muslim leader in this mosque, you feel that the pope is therefore worshiping something other than what (whom?) you worship?
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                          • #28
                            1. Pap, you expect people to explain it away as if it's scandalous without making any sort of argument as to why it's scandalous.

                            2. Hilaire Belloc characterized Islam as a Christian heresy that appeared beyond the borders of Christendom. I find this explanation to be rather plausible, and it is possible to make sense even of the Quranic passages that seem to denounce Christianity as responses specifically to pseudo-Christian and gnostic sects that made their way out into the Arabian peninsula mostly because they were not particularly welcome in Christian society.
                            Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                              By asking if that was fair, I only meant, 'is that a fair representation of your position?
                              Okay.

                              Depends. If you object to or condemn the behavior or beliefs of others, it typically does entail at least an implicit affirmation of your own contrary beliefs.
                              Not at all. For example, a seeking agnostic without a firm belief in God can validly critique the coherence of certain forms of theism.

                              And by bowing his head and praying silently, in the presence of this muslim leader in this mosque, you feel that the pope is therefore worshiping something other than what (whom?) you worship?
                              It's not a matter of feeling. And that is not what I think.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                                Weren't you the one saying that the Pope "purposefully praying towards Mecca as part of inter-religious dialogue" would be a "big deal"?
                                Yep.

                                I do not see actions in an atomistic fashion; rather the meaning and significance of actions is intrinsically derived (not least) from the context. Hence, praying with a Muslim leader facing Mecca is not the same as praying in any old direction.
                                Ok.

                                Comment

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