The Acid Test.

[37818]

Salvation is not something that comes and goes each time you sin and are forgiven, but rather it depends on whether you name is in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Well, not all those who hold the Arminianism view would agree. I for one, believe by virtue of Christ dying for all, everyone's name starts out in the book of life. (Not that everyone is going to be saved.) My understand, one has to overcome the world, through faith in God's Christ, to seal one's name in His book. My understanding, my view.

[Leonhard]

Yes, one can understand it that way. I do not see it that way, as being contradictory. I'm looking at it from the view of possessing eternal life so to go into heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8) after leaving the body, as opposed to going to the nether world, the realm of the dead, sheol, even in its upper compartment (Psalm 86:13; Luke 16:19-31 as being an actual event, Deuteronomy 32:22, the upper compartment then where paradise was Luke 23:43 where Jesus also went in those three days).

Ah I thought you had denied that the OT Saints eventually went to Heaven.

[Cow Poke]

Ah I thought you had denied that the OT Saints eventually went to Heaven.

That would be very problematic, given Hebrews 11.

[37818]

I would say no, but I take the author's point that holy living and living out holiness is vital for Christians, we are set apart and should look it.

I do believe without holiness no one will see God (Hebrews 12:14). So we need salvation which only Christ can give us (2 Corinthians 5:17,,21). And then how can we persuade those yet outside the faith?

[Obsidian]

This suffices to obtain the graces that would ordinarily only have been available to them in the yearly Passover sacrifice, or the Sacrament of Penance available now.

The Passover did not generate spiritual salvation for people.

Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

[37818]

Ah I thought you had denied that the OT Saints eventually went to Heaven.

I believe after Jesus. ascended to heaven, after those 40 days after the resurrection, all the OT believers, where at that time taken to heaven to be with Christ (Ephesians 4:8-10). And 10 days latter poured out the Holy Spirit upon His church He is building (Acts 2:, Matthew 16:18).

[Leonhard]

The Passover did not generate spiritual salvation for people.

Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

I agree, that their sacrifices did not in any way redeem the sins of Israel. They were forgiven by the grace obtained by Christ on the Cross, but the way they got access to this grace, was during the renewing of the Covenant at the Passover Feast, which had its peak in a sacrifice and the high priest entering the Holiest of Holies to pray on the people of Israel. That's as much as how I understand how the Hebrew got redeemed.

[Obsidian]

Paul specifically teaches that David was saved apart from the law, so this theory cannot work.

Romans 4
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

The only way it could work would be if you said that David got saved by keeping the Passover, regardless of whether he was circumcised. That itself would be dubious. But it is especially dubious because only circumcised people were allowed to keep the Passover.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

So David was not saved by circumcision or the Passover (God's laws). And people today are not saved by penance or confession (Rome's laws).

[37818]

Not that I agree. Pentance (repentance) and confession in the RCC are for the Catholic Christian. Not the non-Christian. Not in order to become a Christian.

In my view repentance precedes the faith (Mark 1;15).

[Leonhard]

The only way it could work would be if you said that David got saved by keeping the Passover

This would be a false presumption, I didn't say that David got saved by keeping the Passover, but by having perfect contrition.

Also I as a Catholic do not believe that the initial act of Justification is achieved by the works of men, but is always a gift of grace by God. It leads ultimately to repentance and baptism, or repentance and the desire for baptism (in as much as the person knows that they must have it). Its not alone though, as its also clear that baptized, believing Christians don't necessarily get to Heaven, but must display acts of work, otherwise their faith is dead in them.

And people today are not saved by penance or confession (Rome's laws).

Just a small correction, confession is just one means to the Sacrament of Penance, which can be bestowed by a priest in other circumstances. Its just that private confession is the ordinary means of obtaining the sacrament.

[Cow Poke]

Just a small correction, confession is just one means to the Sacrament of Penance, which can be bestowed by a priest in other circumstances. Its just that private confession is the ordinary means of obtaining the sacrament.

I don't think we need "priests" like the Catholic church uses. There is one God, and one mediator between God and man, and that's Christ Jesus.

[Leonhard]

I don't think we need "priests" like the Catholic church uses. There is one God, and one mediator between God and man, and that's Christ Jesus.

And yet 1 Timothy 2:1-3 Paul asks Christians to intercede in prayer on behalf of the civil authorities, saying that this is very pleasing in the eyes of God. The Catholic Church in no way disputes that its Christ's work alone that reconciles the world to the Father. The question isn't about that, the question is a matter of the authority that Christ has bestowed on the Church to carry out His mission, how we participate in God's graces and the sacraments that have been instated.

The Apostles were clearly given the power to forgive sins. When they pronounced someone forgiven, that would be loosed in Heaven. And whatever they bound believers to, would be similarly bound in Heaven; The authority to forgive, and the authority to teach.

You'll be hardpressed to find a Church Father who did not believe that this authority was passed down to the bishops.

The rituals surrounding these sacraments eventually became what you see today, containing neither more nor less than what is needed. You approach the priest (who by the bishop, in succession with Apostles has granted to the priest the authority to forgive sins). You're blessed, you tell what mortal sins you have committed, showing the appropriate contrition, he judges whether your contrition is sufficient, gives you a penance for your sins and absolves you. In the act of absolving you, its Christ who forgives you. The priest acts merely as an instrument in the role of the sacrament, making visible something that would otherwise be invisible and internal.

Christ chose it to be this way.

[Leonhard]

The wording of poll is a bit odd, because if you mean whether he lost his salvation the answer is no... ultimately he was saved. If you mean "If David died immediately after the crimes he committed would he be damned?" I think the answer is undeniably, yes.

[37818]

This would be a false presumption, I didn't say that David got saved by keeping the Passover, but by having perfect contrition.

Also I as a Catholic do not believe that the initial act of Justification is achieved by the works of men, but is always a gift of grace by God. It leads ultimately to repentance and baptism, or repentance and the desire for baptism (in as much as the person knows that they must have it). Its not alone though, as its also clear that baptized, believing Christians don't necessarily get to Heaven, but must display acts of work, otherwise their faith is dead in them.

Just a small correction, confession is just one means to the Sacrament of Penance, which can be bestowed by a priest in other circumstances. Its just that private confession is the ordinary means of obtaining the sacrament.

". . . Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. . . ." -- Romans 4:6, 7.

The Protestant - Catholic understanding on this is different.

[37818]

The wording of poll is a bit odd, because if you mean whether he lost his salvation the answer is no... ultimately he was saved. If you mean "If David died immediately after the crimes he committed would he be damned?" I think the answer is undeniably, yes.

The full question is in the first post. The poll app would not allow the full question length.