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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    ". . . Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. . . ." -- Romans 4:6, 7.

    The Protestant - Catholic understanding on this is different.
    The Catholic (and presumably some other denominations) would mean that he repented of what he did and so was restored to righteousness, others might mean that he sinned gravely but it never affected his righteousness.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
      And yet 1 Timothy 2:1-3 Paul asks Christians to intercede in prayer on behalf of the civil authorities, saying that this is very pleasing in the eyes of God. The Catholic Church in no way disputes that its Christ's work alone that reconciles the world to the Father. The question isn't about that, the question is a matter of the authority that Christ has bestowed on the Church to carry out His mission, how we participate in God's graces and the sacraments that have been instated.

      The Apostles were clearly given the power to forgive sins. When they pronounced someone forgiven, that would be loosed in Heaven. And whatever they bound believers to, would be similarly bound in Heaven; The authority to forgive, and the authority to teach.

      You'll be hardpressed to find a Church Father who did not believe that this authority was passed down to the bishops.

      The rituals surrounding these sacraments eventually became what you see today, containing neither more nor less than what is needed. You approach the priest (who by the bishop, in succession with Apostles has granted to the priest the authority to forgive sins). You're blessed, you tell what mortal sins you have committed, showing the appropriate contrition, he judges whether your contrition is sufficient, gives you a penance for your sins and absolves you. In the act of absolving you, its Christ who forgives you. The priest acts merely as an instrument in the role of the sacrament, making visible something that would otherwise be invisible and internal.

      Christ chose it to be this way.
      Some how, I have managed to be a Christian for over 40 years without confessing to an earthly priest.
      “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.”
      I Peter 2:9

      Believers are all equal to one another in Christ (Galatians 3:26-28). There is only one High Priest, that is Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7:23-8:13).

      But this is probably a derail of this thread.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        I do believe without holiness no one will see God (Hebrews 12:14). So we need salvation which only Christ can give us (2 Corinthians 5:17,,21). And then how can we persuade those yet outside the faith?
        But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you. (*1 Corinthians‬ *14‬:*24-25‬ ESV)

        Edit: If you didn't want a Pentecostal answer don't ask someone named "Pentecost" with an avatar representing the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, or a quote referring to it.
        Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          And yet 1 Timothy 2:1-3 Paul asks Christians to intercede in prayer on behalf of the civil authorities, saying that this is very pleasing in the eyes of God. The Catholic Church in no way disputes that its Christ's work alone that reconciles the world to the Father. The question isn't about that, the question is a matter of the authority that Christ has bestowed on the Church to carry out His mission, how we participate in God's graces and the sacraments that have been instated.

          The Apostles were clearly given the power to forgive sins. When they pronounced someone forgiven, that would be loosed in Heaven. And whatever they bound believers to, would be similarly bound in Heaven; The authority to forgive, and the authority to teach.

          You'll be hardpressed to find a Church Father who did not believe that this authority was passed down to the bishops.

          The rituals surrounding these sacraments eventually became what you see today, containing neither more nor less than what is needed. You approach the priest (who by the bishop, in succession with Apostles has granted to the priest the authority to forgive sins). You're blessed, you tell what mortal sins you have committed, showing the appropriate contrition, he judges whether your contrition is sufficient, gives you a penance for your sins and absolves you. In the act of absolving you, its Christ who forgives you. The priest acts merely as an instrument in the role of the sacrament, making visible something that would otherwise be invisible and internal.

          Christ chose it to be this way.
          There is the non-Catholic view of the priesthood of believers (1 Peter 2:5). It is the view of some non-Catholic Christians, such as my self, we all have the authority to explain who are now saved (Ephesians 2:8) and who do not yet have their sins forgiven (John 20:23, Acts 1:8).
          Last edited by 37818; 01-03-2015, 07:32 PM.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Some how, I have managed to be a Christian for over 40 years without confessing to an earthly priest.
            “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.”
            I Peter 2:9

            Believers are all equal to one another in Christ (Galatians 3:26-28). There is only one High Priest, that is Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7:23-8:13).

            [b]But this is probably a derail of this thread./b]
            Yup, I won't pick up these points for that reason. Reminds me that I need to read Hebrews again.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
              But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you. (*1 Corinthians‬ *14‬:*24-25‬ ESV)

              Edit: If you didn't want a Pentecostal answer don't ask someone named "Pentecost" with an avatar representing the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, or a quote referring to it.
              Well two things. One all prophecy (Revelation 19:10) of God must be heeded (Matthew 4:4). And I believe John the Apostle was the last church Apostle and prophet. But that is another discussion, for another thread. Your answer is welcome BTW.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Well two things. One all prophecy (Revelation 19:10) of God must be heeded (Matthew 4:4). And I believe John the Apostle was the last church Apostle and prophet. But that is another discussion, for another thread. Your answer is welcome BTW.
                I knew it was a subject we disagreed on, and my edit was only meant as a joke, God bless you, I will not derail your thread. :)
                Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by 37818
                  It is the view of some non-Catholic Christians, such as my self, we all have the authority to explain who are now saved (Ephesians 2:8) and who do not yet have their sins forgiven (John 20:23, Acts 1:8).
                  More generally, I think it just refers to the Christian's duty to lead people to God as an offering.

                  Isaiah 66:19-21
                  And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.

                  Romans 12:1
                  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                    I knew it was a subject we disagreed on, and my edit was only meant as a joke, God bless you, I will not derail your thread. :)
                    If any of the gifts of the Spirit which Christ gave His church is relevant to this thread, it is fair game. I believe in all the gifts Christ gave to His church. (I'm convince some of them [3 not 4] are no longer available being spoken gifts.)
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment

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