Question 61

[GoBahnsen]

Question 61: Are all they saved who hear the gospel, and live in the church?

Answer: All that hear the gospel, and live in the visible church, are not saved; but they only who are true members of the church invisible.

This would almost seem rather obvious. Like the old analogy of living in a garage does not make one a car.

[Samuel]

What is the question suppose to be?

[Zxcv Bnm]

Rather obvious? to whom?
Who asked the question? And who provided the answer?

Perhaps the questioner is trying to determine the path of salvation.

Perhaps the answerer should provide qualifications of membership into the church invisible.

When somebody asks a question to which the answer seems rather obvious, we should not always be so quick to presume that the answer is rather obvious.

[Samuel]

I reply, "haha!"

[GoBahnsen]

Rather obvious? to whom?

To me.

Who asked the question? And who provided the answer?

The Westminster divines.

Perhaps the questioner is trying to determine the path of salvation.

Perhaps the answerer should provide qualifications of membership into the church invisible.

When somebody asks a question to which the answer seems rather obvious, we should not always be so quick to presume that the answer is rather obvious.

Go on...

[Zxcv Bnm]

Well then.... You see.... It is rather obvious!

P.S. I found your Question 59 post where you explain what you're up to, so my apologies for the intrusion.

[Samuel]

Now lets move on to question 62!

Question 62:
What is the purpose of question 61?

Answer:
To answer the question of 62, Thankyou!

[lee_merrill]

Like the old analogy of living in a garage does not make one a car.

I like the way Corrie ten Boom illustrated this: "A mouse born in a biscuit tin is not therefore a biscuit!"

Or as I heard a professor at at Christian college put it, "Part of my job I consider to be getting born Christians born again."

Blessings,
Lee

[GoBahnsen]

I like the way Corrie ten Boom illustrated this: "A mouse born in a biscuit tin is not therefore a biscuit!"

Or as I heard a professor at at Christian college put it, "Part of my job I consider to be getting born Christians born again."

Blessings,
Lee

Good ones. Of course the professor had no power to cause a person to be born again, than any of us. Funny how born again has come to mean nothing more than making the right choice. We "born ourselves" again. If we decide we want to behave and follow Jesus we can perform our own birth. It's all within our power, is the message of Finney, and it continues to ring through the halls of evangelicalism.

[GoBahnsen]

Question 61: Are all they saved who hear the gospel, and live in the church?

Answer: All that hear the gospel, and live in the visible church, are not saved; but they only who are true members of the church invisible.

Joh 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

Joh 12:38 That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again,

Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

In these verses we get some insight into God's involvement regarding who believes. We are dependent upon grace in order to believe upon Christ. God can determine to leave us to ourselves. To our hardness of hearts and blindness.

In the above mentioned texts we see God fearfully exercise His right to with-hold grace. They COULD NOT believe! Why? Because of their hard hearts. But who can soften a heart or give himself a heart of flesh for a heart of stone? Only God can.

Therefore, let us who have believed, move forward in holy fear. For we could have been left to ourselves. We must regard our willingness to believe upon Christ as that being from the hand of God to us. Without His gracious sovereign work, we could put our own names in John 12:39. Therefore they could not believe!

[GoBahnsen]

Sovereign Grace

AUTHOR UNKNOWN

Before the world's creation, He chose me for His own, and this He did without a cause, by Sovereign Grace alone.

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My place He then appointed, my special work He planned, and what He wills He'll bring to pass, by His Almighty hand.

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Sometimes by many trials, He works His will in me, Sometimes in quiet pastures, He leads me tenderly.

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His ways I cannot fathom, I do not need to see, By Grace all work together, work only good for me.

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And through eternal ages I still shall be His own, His loved, Redeemed, and chosen one, by Sovereign Grace alone.

[GoBahnsen]

And here is my outline for tomorrow's class.

Question 61: Are all they saved who hear the gospel, and live in the church?

Answer: All that hear the gospel, and live in the visible church, are not saved; but they only who are true members of the church invisible.
This would almost seem rather obvious. Like the old analogy of living in a garage does not make one a car. Corrie ten Boom put it this way: "A mouse born in a biscuit tin is not therefore a biscuit!"

So what are we dealing with here? What is really at issue in this question is that of true or false professors. The question is designed to deal with self deception. Those who think they are true Christians because they have joined a Church, been baptized or take the Lord’s Supper, etc.

Before we joined this Church, last December, Pastor Gorrell told my wife and I: "it’s easy to hoodwink a Pastor and the Elders."

And it’s true, we can easily deceive ourselves and those who are in charge over us.

This is a question that should cause us all to take stock. To take a moment of pause and ask ourselves "Am I really a genuine Christian or am I just playing games or going through the motions?

Those who oppose the Reformed faith will often mock us by saying, "oh well, you are either predestined or not, so if you’re deceived, then it was predestined to be such. You are either elect of non elect and there isn’t anything you can really do about it." (A form of erroneous fatalism, which we reject.)

The Bible disagrees with this kind of mocking question and tells us to: "…. give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble: (2Peter1:10)

Peter affirms predestination and election, but he also wants his readers to be diligent about their Christianity. Make sure you’re really following Christ and not just trying to "fit in" with the club.

Paul tells us to: "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test! (2Co 13:5) Or are reprobate KJV

"A man who wishes to prove an axe to see whether it is good or not, does not sit down and look at it, or read all the treatises which he can find on axe-making, and on the properties of iron and steel, valuable as such information would be; but he shoulders his axe and goes into the woods, and puts it to the trial there.

If it cuts well; if it does not break; if it is not soon made dull, he understands the quality of his axe better than he could in any other way. So if a man wishes to know what his religion is worth, let him try it in the places where religion is of any value. Let him go into the world with it. Let him go and try to do good; to endure affliction in a proper manner; to combat the errors and follies of life; to admonish sinners of the error of their ways; and to urge forward the great work of the conversion of the world, and he will soon see there what his religion is worth - as easily as a man can test the qualities of an axe. Let him not merely sit down and think, and compare himself with the Bible and look at his own heart - valuable as this may be in many respects - but let him treat his religion as he would anything else - let him subject it to actual experiment." (Albert Barnes 1798-1870 –A Presbyterian to be taken with a grain of salt-he wasn’t without some doctrinal problems)

We don’t have the time to go into a full treatment on self deception, but we should all realize that we are not exempt from it.

Phi 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

We must be very serious about our faith. We must treat it as the most important thing in this life. Do I know Christ Jesus in truth? Keeping in mind, that if we do believe, genuinely, it is because

"… it is God who works in you, both to will and to do for his good pleasure." (Phi 2:13)

And if we fear that we might not be genuine then we must make it a matter of urgent prayer. We must seek the Lord while He may be found.

Isa 55:6 "Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near;

For the day is coming for all of us when time runs out. And…How shall we escape if we neglect so great a Salvation? (Heb 2:3)

Paul says of the unbelieving Jews of His day "… they were broken off because of their unbelief, but you (Gentiles-us) stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. (Romans 11:20-22)

This can sound so non Calvinistic, but it is the Bible my friends. We are not to be presumptuous with our Salvation. We are not to be cavalier, but rather diligent to make sure we are part of the true Church. The Church invisible. The true elect of God will take heed to God’s word. For they know the voice of their Shepherd and the voice of strangers they will not follow.

Let me leave you with these words of comfort to the elect of God: But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. (Jesus speaking to His rejecters)

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. (John 10:26-29) Let’s read Question 61 together.

[furay]

There is no "invisible church", unless you are speaking of the Saints in heaven. The Church on earth is One and quite Visible.

[Constantine]

There is no "invisible church", unless you are speaking of the Saints in heaven. The Church on earth is One and quite Visible.

I agree completely. Because if the Church was invisible I could never find it on time for Mass on Sunday.

[GoBahnsen]

The Church "invisible" speaks of all true believers. IOW, maybe a person just became a new believer, but has yet to be joined to a visible Church. Do we say he or she is not really a Christian until they visibly join themselves to an actual congregation of believers? The idea of the Church invisble, is that while one member might be a Baptist and another a Presbyterian, they are all members of the One true Church, if they are genuine. Heaven won't be a place for different denominations. That's part of her visible aspect, but her real unity transcends visible boundaries.


I'm surprised you guys don't know this. Are you putting me on?