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Matthew 12:40 an idiom?

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  • #76
    Abigail,
    re: "Personally, I like the interpretation that the crucifixion took place on a Thursday daytime, that 'heart of the earth' does refer to the tomb and the days and nights are counted Day 1, Night 1, Day 2, Night 2, Day 3, Night 3 ie that Jesus rose sometime between sunset Saturday and sunrise Sunday."

    Agree; so why are you giving me grief for directing my question to those who think the heart of the earth is referring to the tomb?

    Comment


    • #77
      I came across this:
      Source: The Case for Easter: A Journalist Investigates the Evidence for the Resurrection

      Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah, tenth in the descent from Ezra was very specific: "A day and a night are an Onah ['a portion of time'] and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it" [J.Talmud, Shabbath 9.3 and b.Talmud, Pesachim 4a]

      © Copyright Original Source

      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #78
        37818,
        re: "I came across this: Source: The Case for Easter: A Journalist Investigates the Evidence for the Resurrection"

        As regards the Jewish practice of counting any part of a calendar day as a whole calendar day I would agree, but when "nights" is added to "days" to yield the phrase "X days AND X nights" it normally refers to a measurement of a time period where "day" refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and "night"refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period. No one In the history of apologetics as far as I know has ever presented any historical documentation that the phrase X days AND X nights was a unique first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which could mean something different than what the phrase means in English.

        Azariah's interpretation of the meaning of the phrase, "A day and a night make an Onah, and a part of an Onah is as the whole" doesn't seem to make sense. On the one hand he is saying that a day AND a night define an Onah and then he turns right around and says that a day OR a night define an Onah. What makes more sense is that the rabbi is saying that a day is an Onah and a night is an Onah but that any part of a day can be counted as a whole day and any part of a night can be counted as a whole night. And that interpretation is supported by Rabbi Ismael, Rabbi Jochanan, and Rabbi Akiba, contemporaries of Azariah, who all agree that an onah was 12 hours long, either a day OR a night. "Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica". Also, a definition of Onah from "The Jerusalem Center for Advanced Torah Study" says: "The word onah literally means 'time period.' In the context of the laws of niddah, it usually refers to a day or a night. Each 24-hour day thus consists of two onot. The daytime onah begins at sunrise (henetz hachamah, commonly called netz) and ends at sunset (shekiat hachamah or shekiah). The night-time onah lasts from sunset until sunrise."

        Comment


        • #79
          An onah is just any identifiable period of time. (Not particularly germane, but in modern Hebrew the most common usage of the word may be to refer to “seasons” of a tv series). “In the context of niddah,” the ceremonial laws of cleanness were very nitpicky and had rules for the daytime or nighttime onset of uncleanness, and they distinguished them as separate onot because people naturally were counting the hours until they could go back to normal relations. That does not limit the meaning of onah in other contexts at all. I imagine Azariah’s generalization that “part of an onah is as the whole,” purposely uses the vague time period rather than saying “part of a day,” or “part of a night” because his rule is true of other time periods. Part of a year is as a whole year. Kings described the length of their reign by whole years (inclusively); even if they took the throne on the last day of the year, it counted.

          The idiom “x days and x nights” could be used to specify full 24-hour days, but it could also be used as a way to call attention to x by repeating it. I don’t know if the Flood was described as 40 days and 40 nights because the rain started and stopped at a precise time, or because the number 40 was significant as a symbol of a period of testing and judgment. That’s worth repeating the 40. I don’t know if Jonah said 3 days and 3 nights because he timed it (he couldn't see the sunrise from within the fish), or to call attention to the number 3 and the fact that it was longer than anyone could possibly survive naturally in such circumstances.

          In 1 Sam. 30:12, the Egyptian was said to have not eaten for 3 days and 3 nights, but then admits he got sick 3 days ago, which I would expect to be an inclusive counting. No, it doesn’t prove the x days and x nights was a partial, inclusive count, but it certainly allows for it (and I think favors it). He was probably the one who told them his story this way, using the doubled idiom to stress how long it was and how hungry he was (“I haven’t eaten in a long, long time.”), even if it was actually significantly shorter than 72 hours.

          Note that Jesus always referred to his resurrection as 3 days or the third day, both of which would easily and naturally be interpreted as the third of three inclusive days, except for the one time when he called attention to the similarities between his burial and Jonah’s ordeal. On that one occasion he says, “three days and three nights,” both because that is the way it was stated in the book of Jonah and because it highlights the crucial number 3. Not because the length of time was exactly the same down to the minute.

          It doesn’t have to be a “common” idiom to use “x days and x nights” for a shorter inclusive length; it only has to be the case that Jesus was justified in comparing himself to Jonah and describing his burial this way–that he wasn’t wrong even if the actual time period was a shorter, partial-days, inclusive usage that wasn’t very common. It doesn’t even matter if the Jews he was speaking to wouldn’t have assumed he was talking about partial days; they understood what mattered, the miraculous return from the grave foreshadowed by Jonah.

          I honestly don’t care or know what day of the week Jesus died or rose on; I only need to know that he did. I’ll stick with the historic understanding because I have no reason to reject it, and because it especially is supported by the Emmaus disciples saying, “This is the third day,” on Sunday afternoon. (There are other reasons, but they’re beyond both the scope of this thread and what I care to address).

          Comment


          • #80
            Just Passing Through,

            This topic is essentially directed to those folks who say that it was common at the time to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have taken place. A 6th day crucifixion/first day resurrection would be one example. I'm simply looking for other examples to support it's commonality.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by rstrats View Post
              Just Passing Through,

              This topic is essentially directed to those folks who say that it was common at the time to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have taken place. A 6th day crucifixion/first day resurrection would be one example. I'm simply looking for other examples to support it's commonality.

              Plague of Darkness -



              "The episode of the three dark days in Egypt is similar in message to Jonah’s three days of darkness in the belly of the whale and Mary and Joseph’s three days of searching for Jesus when they found him in the temple. These events foreshadowed Christ’s three days in the tomb when Mary and the Apostles suffered that darkness of soul in the Absence of our Lord and Savior before His resurrection.

              In Wisdom 17:2, the Egyptian rulers are rightfully characterized as lawless men who “supposed that they held the holy nation in their power,” when really “they themselves lay as captives of darkness and prisoners of long night, shut in under their roofs, exiles from eternal providence.” Modern governments operating by enlightenment ideologies are perfectly characterized by Wisdom’s description of the Egyptians, there is truly “nothing new under the sun.” This is also an apt description of all of us who believe that we can order our lives by our own contrivances."

              For you: Bo 5772-2012

              “The Plague of Darkness”

              And for my reference: Cock's crow" is a technical term in Jewish law: kri'at hagever (קריאת הגבר). It is a time of day prior to dawn that marks the end of night.

              Comment


              • #82
                Marta,

                Do you believe the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week?

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by rstrats View Post
                  Marta,

                  Do you believe the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week?

                  Sometimes I think it does - ???

                  All four Gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on a Friday afternoon, that the women rested on a Saturday, and that the empty tomb was discovered early on a Sunday morning. However, the Gospels differ as to whether the Feast of Passover was on Friday or on Saturday in the year Jesus was killed; thus they provide conflicting evidence as to exactly which calendar year it could have been. According to astronomical calculations, the 15th of Nisan in the Jewish lunar calendar fell on a Thursday evening / Friday in AD 27, while it fell on a Friday evening / Saturday in AD 30 and AD 33. The Death of Jesus in Mark vs. John
                  by Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.
                  The end of the week accordingly was on Saturday and the first day of the week was considered to be on Sunday. However, and looking at the day in a different way - the cock crows (or rooster crows) - Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me." So, "Cock's crow" is a technical term in Jewish law: kri'at hagever (קריאת הגבר). It is a time of day prior to dawn that marks the end of night. It was used of a type of town crier who would make three announcements on the 14th of Nisan in the morning. (Passover Eve) Another thought was this, the priest who was in charge of locking the Temple doors at night and then unlocking the doors each morning just before dawn.

                  Interestingly, he would place the key each night in an opening in the stone floor in one of the many side rooms of the Temple, then place a flat stone over the opening and put his sleeping mat over the stone so that he was actually sleeping on top of the key to the Temple. Then just before dawn he would proceed to open all the doors in the Temple while crying out in a loud voice three calls to attendance: "All the cohanim (priests) prepare to sacrifice”. "All the Leviim (Levites) to their stations”. "All the Israelites come to worship”. Then he would repeat these statements two more times. It was his responsibility to rouse all the priests, Levites and worshippers to call them to the morning services and sacrifices. (Remember the priests rotated duty so it wasn’t one man whose whole life was to sleep in the Temple on top of the key, but priests took their turn at the Temple responsibilities, including sleeping in the Temple at this particular post.)

                  The only problem was this, The word “gever” in Hebrew can mean “man” or “rooster” and the Greek word used here is “alektor” which means a rooster. (according to the Christian website) However, on a Jewish website, The word sechvi, here translated as "mind," also means "rooster," as referenced in the Book of Job (38:36), "Who gave understanding to the rooster [mind]?" and, Talmud translate the word "sechvi" as rooster, as you mentioned, that we are thanking God for giving the wisdom to this animal to be the world's first natural alarm clock. So unless there is a determination on the usage of the word - the denial of Peter would have been at the moment of dawn - Passover day.


                  References:

                  What is the 'cock's crow'?:
                  This is a good question because the Mishnah (m.Bava Kamma 7:7) states that:

                  אין מגדלין תרנגולים בירושלים.

                  We may not raise chickens in Jerusalem.

                  The reason for this is not the dung directly (dung is not actually ritually unclean). But there is a concern that the chickens may contaminate the sacrifices with the unclean creatures they might drag out of the dungheaps. (Remember, some sacrifices were eaten anywhere in Jerusalem, not just the Temple courts.)

                  In the Gemara (b.Yoma 20b) there is a disagreement as to whether the term kri'at hagever literally means "call of the man" or "call of the rooster":

                  מאי קריאת הגבר? רב אמר קרא גברא, רבי שילא אמר: קרא תרנגולא.

                  What is kri'at hagever? Rav said, "Call of the man." Rabbi Shila said, "Call of the rooster."

                  The Gemara continues by explaining that they are both right. In the Temple precinct, there was a Temple crier who called out to begin the service. Everywhere else, the time would be determined by an actual rooster crowing.

                  The Priests' Trumpet Blasts

                  Praising the Rooster’s Crow

                  http://whitefeatherministries.com/th...er-or-rooster/

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Marta,
                    re: " Sometimes I think it does - ???"


                    What is "it" and what do you sometimes think that it does?


                    BTW, you have a question directed to you in post #82?

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by rstrats View Post
                      Marta,
                      re: " Sometimes I think it does - ???"


                      What is "it" and what do you sometimes think that it does?


                      BTW, you have a question directed to you in post #82?
                      Answered. Sometimes I think it does fall on the 6th - see post #83. What do you consider it to be? Jesus, as it's said, was crucified (before sundown) on Nisan 14, John prophetically corresponding with the time when the Passover lambs were sacrificed at the Temple (John 19:31, which shows that the following day was “a great” sabbath. The day after Passover was always a sabbath, no matter on what day of the week it came. (Le 23:5-7) But when this special Sabbath coincided with the regular Sabbath (the seventh day of the week), it became “a great one.” ). Gospel of Mark: Jesus and his disciples celebrate the Passover Meal the evening before his crucifixion.

                      Jesus was on the cross for six hours and was nailed to the cross at 9:00 am in the morning. The hour of death was at 3:00 pm. Darkness was over the land for the last three hours Jesus was on the cross (Matt. 27:45) His body was then removed before sunset, just before Passover began in accordance with Jewish law. ( You have a message - read my notes on the Plague of Darkness ) Then also consider a halachic hour is thus known as a sha'ah zemanit, or proportional hour, and varies by the season and even by the day. Hours

                      The Talmud teaches that the day the Jews left Egypt -- the 15th of the month of Nissan -- was a Thursday, and the 10th of the month was the previous Shabbat:

                      As to Nissan in which the Israelites departed from Egypt, on the fourteenth they killed their Passover sacrifices, on the fifteenth they went forth, and in the evening [of the 15th] the firstborn were smitten... and that day was a Thursday. (Shabbath 87b)
                      The Sabbath immediately preceding Passover*is called Shabbat HaGadol, the great Sabbath. According to tradition, the 10th of Nisan in the year of the exodus was a Saturday.

                      15 Nisan (c. 1713*BCE) – Birth of Isaac
                      15 Nisan (c. 1456*BCE) – The Exodus from Egypt

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Marta,
                        re: "Answered. Sometimes I think it does fall on the 6th..."

                        It seems odd, but that means that you're saying that sometimes you think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and at other times you think that it took place on some other day of the week. So on the times that you think it took place on the 6th day of the week how do you account for the missing night time of Matthew 12:40?




                        re: "What do you consider it to be?"

                        I think scripture most likely indicates that the crucifixion occurred on the 5th day of the week.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by rstrats View Post
                          Marta,
                          re: "Answered. Sometimes I think it does fall on the 6th..."

                          It seems odd, but that means that you're saying that sometimes you think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and at other times you think that it took place on some other day of the week. So on the times that you think it took place on the 6th day of the week how do you account for the missing night time of Matthew 12:40?




                          re: "What do you consider it to be?"

                          I think scripture most likely indicates that the crucifixion occurred on the 5th day of the week.

                          Matthew 26:34 is rendered as, “ I tell you faithfully that this very night, before the rooster calls out, you will completely deny me three times.” In his annotations, Gruber points out how “The Hebrew word “gever” can mean either 'rooster or “man”. There was a man in the Temple who cried out in the morning to begin the service of the Temple. One of the priests arose early and bathed before the arrival of the officer, who usually came about cockcrow. The officer knocked at the door of the Chamber of the Hearth, and the priests opened it. He called for the priest who had bathed, and ordered him to decide by lot which of the priests should serve that day. He then references several statements appearing in the Talmud:


                          What is the definition of the cock crow? Rab said, ‘It is the call of a man’ since the word for man and cock share the same consonants. R. Shila said, ‘It is the call of a cock.’Rab visited the locale of R. Shila. There was no public speaker to appoint to stand next to R. Shila to serve him in presenting his public address, so Rab took the position next to him to serve as his loud speaker. He explained,‘What is the definition of the cock crow? It is the call of a man.’Said to him R. Shila, ‘But will the master please say, It is the call of a cock?’ He said to him, ‘A flute makes great music for nobles, but hand it to weavers, and they won’t take it at all’...When I stood before R. Hiyya [as his public voice] and interpreted the matter so —
                          What is the definition of the cock crow? It is the call of a man — he didn’t say a word to me! And yet you say to me, But will the master please say, It is the call of a cock!’”(b.Yoma20b).dThere should be little problem,in an academic sense, suggesting the possibility that the cock or rooster crowing,

                          There should be little problem,in an academic sense, suggesting the possibility that the cock or rooster crowing, might be the Temple-crier—positing that the Greek Gospel narratives translated Yeshua’s apparent, oral usage of the Hebrew gever literally as alektōr. As is inferrable from the Talmudic quote referenced, only an understanding of the terminology within the context of Second Temple Judaism, could or would have enabled a reader to think that before the Temple-crier (a/k/a a cock or rooster) called for daily prayers to begin, that Peter would have denied the Messiah. Yet, not all of those involved in translating the Greek Apostolic Scriptures into Hebrew, for either Jewish evangelism or the benefit of native Hebrew speakers, have chosen to render alektōr as gever, but instead as tar’negol(Delitzsch, Salkinson-Ginsburg, 1992 UBSHNT) In modern Hebrew,tarnegol(lwgnrt) means “cock; rooster,” although in some instances can also be a“turkey.”



                          What was the purpose of the Temple-crier, it was his obligation to rouse all the Priests, Levites, and worshippers and call them to begin their preparations for the morning sacrifice service. In the stillness of the early morning, sound carries well and since the palace of the High Priest was within a very short walk from the Temple, it was the Temple Crier’s or the rooster and/or cock crowing that was heard in the courtyard where Y’shua was being questioned.

                          Now, the courtyard - Once the congregation arrived in the Courtyard, the gates were closed and the service was conducted to the sound of the levites' trumpet-blasts. The entire assembly sang the Hallel prayers of thanksgiving together, led by the levite choir. Scripture points at Peter who followed at a distance and when they had kindled a fire in the middle of the courtyard and had sat down together, Peter sat down with them. A servant girl saw him seated there in the firelight. She looked closely at him and said, "This man was with him." But he denied it. "Woman, I don't know him," he said.

                          What night would this have been? - Also, when you read about Luke 1:8, 8*Once when Zechariah’s division was on duty and he was serving as priest before God, 9*he was chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense. 10*And when the time for the burning of incense came, all the assembled worshipers were praying outside.

                          So did the announcement of John come during the Passover? As well? - 11*Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12*When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13*But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard.

                          References:

                          1.Friday, April 10, 2009
                          Did a "cock" really "crow"?


                          2.TEMPLE, ADMINISTRATION AND SERVICE OF:

                          3. Cock/ Rooster Crowing
                          Last edited by Marta; 03-19-2016, 01:10 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Marta,

                            You have a question directed to you in post #86.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by rstrats View Post
                              Marta,

                              You have a question directed to you in post #86.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by rstrats View Post
                                Marta,

                                You have a question directed to you in post #86.
                                There is no night missing night - how do you account for Matthew 26:34 is rendered as, “ I tell you faithfully that this very night before the rooster calls out, you will completely deny me three times.”.......


                                Against this background, the debate between Beit Hillel and Beit Shammai regarding the scope of the first Hallel takes on new significance. The Mishna (Pesachim 116b) records: "How far does one recite it? Beit Shammai maintain: Until 'As a joyous mother of children.' Beit Hillel say: Until 'the flint into a fountain of waters.'" The Talmud Yerushalmi (Pesachim 10:5) elaborates their positions as follows:



                                Beit Shammai said to them: Did Israel [already] leave Egypt that he should mention the exodus from Egypt?

                                Beit Hillel said to them: Even if you wait until the cock's crowing, they would still not have reached half of the redemption. How then do we mention the redemption, when they were not yet redeemed? Surely they only left in the middle of the day, as it is stated: "And it came to pass on that selfsame day, etc." Rather, since he started the mitzva, we say to him, "Finish."



                                Both Beit Shammai and Beit Hillel demand that the Hallel prior to the meal relate directly and exclusively to the experience of the exodus from Egypt. The extent to which there should be a temporal correspondence between the actual events and their commemoration and reenactment is a matter of dispute between them. Thus, Beit Shammai argue that only the first chapter of Hallel is appropriate, as it refers obliquely to the liberation of the Jews from bondage – "Give praise, O servants of God," and not the servants of Pharaoh – which had already occurred by the beginning of the evening. Since the exodus did not take place until the next day, the emotional-spiritual response to that miracle is not yet appropriate. Beit Hillel, on the other hand, suggest a more flexible commemoration, inasmuch as the destiny of the people of Israel had already begun to unfold. They refuse to lock the commemoration into so strict a timetable, since the entire drama of the exodus from Egypt constitutes a single process.[21] In any case, even Beit Hillel concede that the first segment of Hallel functions as a specific means of celebrating the event of the exodus from Egypt. This presents a striking contrast to the standard, unfragmented Hallel, in which the exodus from Egypt is merely one motif, and in which it is nothing more than an example of the kind of miracle that generates the obligation of thanksgiving.

                                The answer is above. Hallel on Pesach Night

                                Jesus death was reported at 3:00 pm - that may not be accurate. (correction)
                                Last edited by Marta; 03-20-2016, 12:28 AM.

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