"And this" in 3 John 1:5

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

3 John 1:5 Beloved, it is a faithful thing you do in all your efforts for these brothers, strangers as they are...

Now "as they are" seems to be translating "kai touto," which is singular and neuter, but "brothers" and "strangers" are both plural and masculine. So is this possible? In Eph. 2:8, as I have heard, "kai touto" cannot refer to either "grace" or "faith" alone, because these are both feminine singular.

Yet it seems in 3 John 1:5 we have a similar phrase, where apparently there is such a refererence.

This is also borne out by the NAS, it seems:

3 John 1:5 Beloved, you are acting faithfully in whatever you accomplish for the brethren, and especially when they are strangers.

And "especially" seems to imply "especially brothers and strangers," not "especially these deeds to them." Especially(!) if we leave off the words in italics:

3 John 1:5 Beloved, you are acting faithfully in whatever you accomplish for the brethren, and especially strangers.

Where "especially" also seems to translate "kai touto"...

Blessings,
Lee

[Jaltus]

touto refers to faith, kai is taken as especially.

I translated this as:

Beloved, it is a faithful thing you do for the brothers, even this for strangers,

[lee_merrill]

Thanks for your reply, Jaltus...

Beloved, it is a faithful thing you do for the brothers, even this for strangers,

Then should "strangers" be dative or something? And I would expect if there is a reference to a word other than "brothers/strangers," it would be to "you are doing" more probably than to "faithful." Even in your translation, "even this" seems to refer to "things you do" here, not "faithful"...

Just wondering...

Blessings,
Lee

[Jaltus]

Faithful thing is one word in Greek, it is neuter singular, just as touto is.

The accusative shows direction, which means something can be done "for" the accusative. I believe this is known as the accusative of advantage.

[lee_merrill]

Thanks for your reply, Jaltus...

Faithful thing is one word in Greek, it is neuter singular, just as touto is.

But shouldn't we have "kai touto eis ..." or something similar, instead? Isn't there a need for some more in this phrase, to indicate that "kai touto" refers to "faithfulness," and not to "strangers"?

The accusative shows direction, which means something can be done "for" the accusative. I believe this is known as the accusative of advantage.

But your translation indicates "strangers" as the meaning of "kai touto." As does the ESV, and the NAS, as well...

Blessings,
Lee

[Jaltus]

Thanks for your reply, Jaltus...


But shouldn't we have "kai touto eis ..." or something similar, instead? Isn't there a need for some more in this phrase, to indicate that "kai touto" refers to "faithfulness," and not to "strangers"?


But your translation indicates "strangers" as the meaning of "kai touto." As does the ESV, and the NAS, as well...

Blessings,
Lee

I am not sure what you are saying. If strangers is plural, how can "this" refer to it?

In Greek, the text is:

[greek]Agaphte, piston poieiV o ean ergash eis touV adelfouV kai touto xenouV[/greek],

Beloved, it is a faithful thing you do for the brothers, even this for strangers,

Just as the verb is elided for the second phrase, so could the preposition. Now "touto" has two different words it can refer to grammatically. 1) It can refer to "piston" which means faithful thing, or it can refer to "o," which points back to "faithful thing." I really do not see any other way to take this grammatically.

ADDITION: Turns out "kai touto" is an idiomatic expression meaning "especially this" or "especially this group," thus it ends up as a predicate phrase. Note BDF 290, 5.

[lee_merrill]

Hi Jaltus,

Turns out "kai touto" is an idiomatic expression meaning "especially this" or "especially this group," thus it ends up as a predicate phrase. Note BDF 290, 5.

Then it may not have to match? If it's an idiom?

As in the ESV and NAS translation, I find it difficult to believe that these well-respected, accuracy-emphasizing translations both missed a basic point in the grammar!

What, by the way, is BDF, though?

Blessings,
Lee <- Going over the river and through the woods to grammar's house...

[Jaltus]

BDF = Blass, DeBruner, Funk, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature.