What's wrong with the Western church?

[JonAdams]

Firstly, I would like to prempt a possible missunderstanding to this post. I am only talking of the "western" church, by which I mean the church in western Europe, North America, Australia etc.

With that out of the way:
It has been recognised that western church is "dying" (you may consider such a word extreme, but "shrinking" is definitely accurate) with many young people abandoning their parents faith, huge numbers of nominal christians with no active faith and a general attitude that the church is no longer relevent to life.

So, my question is; what to people think the cause of this is?

Note: I am not particularly looking for "solutions" with this thread, just what people think is causing this problem (it doesn't have to be a single thing).
On the other hand, if you disagree with my assesment of the state of the western church, please explain.

Thank you.

Jonathan.

[Amazing Rando]

It's dying in part because it's been in the mainstream too long and is running out of steam- even people who are still Christians are growing "soft" and abandoning the radical discipleship the faith requires. Christians are called to suffer and die if neccesary as a witness, but so many of our current efforts are concentrated on making ourselves comfortable and avoiding the very suffering that's an intrinsic calling and an essential part of following Jesus.

[Anoetos]

I am not sure we should be so concerned. God will have His remnant, and as Our Lord said, the way is narrow and few are those who tread upon it.

The idea that the West is synonymous with some bright, shining idea of "Christendom" is difficult to shake even though, in the post modern era, it has become at best an anachronism, and at worst a bad joke.

The Kingdom of Jesus is not of this world, (I know my Theonomic friends have difficulty with where I and others like me go with this principle, but I go there nonetheless because I think Scripture and a consistent eschatological testimony require it). It will overtake and transform and rebirth a New World at the eschaton, but until then, we should not be overly bothered when institutions which have the form of godliness without the substance pass away.

[Amazing Rando]

The idea that the West is synonymous with some bright, shining idea of "Christendom" is difficult to shake even though, in the post modern era, it has become at best an anachronism, and at worst a bad joke.

Yet the Christendom mentality lamentably still persists in the minds of many- I think that's part of the problem.

The Kingdom of Jesus is not of this world,

Two thumbs up to that!

[JonAdams]

Thank you (and to Amazing Rando) for you reponses. In general I agree with what you say but I would like to make a couple of comments:

I am not sure we should be so concerned...

It depends what you mean by concerned. If you mean some sort of panicked "The church is dying", "Christainity's failing" or some such then I would agree. But if you mean we should not be bothered by the shrinking church at all then I would disagree. At the very least I feel we should be concerned enough to try to understand why it happened. But more than that we should be concerned for the lost who, due to the lack of encounters with christians never even hear the gospel.

The Kingdom of Jesus is not of this world, (I know my Theonomic friends have difficulty with where I and others like me go with this principle, but I go there nonetheless because I think Scripture and a consistent eschatological testimony require it).

As an aside, could you please explain your position.

The Kingdom of Jesus is not of this world,

I think perhaps you have the italics in the wrong place:
The Kingdom of Jesus is not of this world but it is in this world. (As I understand it, the new Earth will still be this Earth just remade in the same way as our new bodies will still be our body (just remade)

but until then, we should not be overly bothered when institutions which have the form of godliness without the substance pass away.

Agreed, but I'm not really concerned with institutions. It's individuals that bother me. For example: in the church I was growing up in there were quite a few young people of my age and a few years older who (with few exceptions) dropped out of the church as they reached teenage years. It was noticable that there were (and as far as I know still are) very few people in the age range (18-30) in the church (this pattern is prevalent across England and - as far as I know - many other western countries). This means there is almost an entire generation who don't go to church (except perhaps Christmas, Easter, weddings and funerals etc. - but even this is dropping). It also means (since this generation are/will be the new parents) a new generation of children growing up with little to no christian influence in their lives and certainly no knowledge of the gospel (except the rubbish they teach in schools). We are called to have a heart for the lost and this is a lot of lost people. Should we be concerned about them? Is it not better for someone to go to church where they we at least hear the gospel (even if they ultimatly reject it) than to not go (and so not hear) at all?
Anyway (I have gone on a bit ) I hope this clarifies my position and what I was actually at with my original post.
Thank you.

Jonathan.

[Hitch]

Firstly, I would like to prempt a possible missunderstanding to this post. I am only talking of the "western" church, by which I mean the church in western Europe, North America, Australia etc.

With that out of the way:
It has been recognised that western church is "dying" (you may consider such a word extreme, but "shrinking" is definitely accurate) with many young people abandoning their parents faith, huge numbers of nominal christians with no active faith and a general attitude that the church is no longer relevent to life.

So, my question is; what to people think the cause of this is?

Note: I am not particularly looking for "solutions" with this thread, just what people think is causing this problem (it doesn't have to be a single thing).
On the other hand, if you disagree with my assesment of the state of the western church, please explain.

Thank you.

Jonathan.

This is the subject of Schaeffer's The Great Evangelical Disaster Francis Schaeffer, 1984.

You might find it interesting.

[JonAdams]

This is the subject of Schaeffer's The Great Evangelical Disaster Francis Schaeffer, 1984.

You might find it interesting.

Thank you. Unfortunately I'm a poor student at the moment so can't really afford it (I've already spent far to much on books this year) but I'll add it to my list .

Jonathan.

[Constantine]

So, my question is; what to people think the cause of this is?

The Reformation.

If everyone is their own authority on interpreting the Bible then you will have endless denominations all claiming to be authentic. That leads to moral relativism (no one has any authority to tell the other they are wrong) and to liberal ideology. Not quite that smoothly or quick, but eventually.

Also the fact that life is so damn easy and materialistic. I'm 18, and most my friends are interested in sex and getting high paying jobs. Its really pathetic.

[CatholicSage]

Post-"Enlightenment" secularism and hedonism.

[Cleombrotus]

Firstly, I would like to prempt a possible missunderstanding to this post. I am only talking of the "western" church, by which I mean the church in western Europe, North America, Australia etc.

With that out of the way:
It has been recognised that western church is "dying" (you may consider such a word extreme, but "shrinking" is definitely accurate) with many young people abandoning their parents faith, huge numbers of nominal christians with no active faith and a general attitude that the church is no longer relevent to life.

So, my question is; what to people think the cause of this is?

Note: I am not particularly looking for "solutions" with this thread, just what people think is causing this problem (it doesn't have to be a single thing).
On the other hand, if you disagree with my assesment of the state of the western church, please explain.

Thank you.

Jonathan.

Jonathan, the problem is simple. One foot in the world and one foot in Jesus. And we conceal it by worshipping worship.

[Arnold]

In response to the opening post I disagree that the church in America is in decline. For the rest the reason is liberalism.

[studyhound]

Thank you. Unfortunately I'm a poor student at the moment so can't really afford it (I've already spent far to much on books this year) but I'll add it to my list .

Jonathan.

The library your best friend, it could have it and if not they could order it for you. (though there might be a small fee, for me at my public library it's a dollar a book.

[Jezz]

The Reformation.

I tend to agree. But then, we all know what caused the Reformation - the heresy of papism. That this is the case is readily evident by the fact that those churches which did not accept this heresy have never had a Reformation.

The reason that Christianity is dying in the West is because it has forgotten the role of the Spirit in life of the Church. This has also led to such abberations as the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements akin to the Montanists of the 3rd century.

The reason that the West has forgotten the role of the Spirit in the life of the Church is because their doctrine of the Trinity (which includes the filioque) makes the Spirit inferior to the Father and the Son. Little wonder, then that the Spirit would become inferior in the life of the churches that confessed that creed...

If everyone is their own authority on interpreting the Bible then you will have endless denominations all claiming to be authentic. That leads to moral relativism (no one has any authority to tell the other they are wrong) and to liberal ideology. Not quite that smoothly or quick, but eventually.

Correct. And of course, the RCC is not much different - the only difference being which person they attribute the authority of interpretation...

Also the fact that life is so damn easy and materialistic. I'm 18, and most my friends are interested in sex and getting high paying jobs. Its really pathetic.

I agree with this.

I have spoken with many Lebanese immigrants in the local Orthodox (Patriarchate of Antioch) church, and they say that Australia is a much safer place to be at the moment than Lebanon (which is in the midst of a civil war). I tell them that the apparent safety is deceiving... the same things in our country that give physical safety (affluence, politically stability) also make it spiritually very dangerous, for precisely the reasons you say. People who are blessed much in worldly terms forget about where the blessings came from.

[JonAdams]

Thanks again to people for their comments. I will try to respond to everyone in this post (so I apologise if it gets a bit long!)

The Reformation.

If everyone is their own authority on interpreting the Bible then you will have endless denominations all claiming to be authentic. That leads to moral relativism (no one has any authority to tell the other they are wrong) and to liberal ideology. Not quite that smoothly or quick, but eventually.

I think different denominations are only a problem if they claim that they and only they are the true church and all others are false. Whilst I have no doubt there are a few groups who have and do claim this as far as I can see the majority of denominations (particularly the big ones) in the protestant tradition will accept other churches as "true" even if they consider them to be wrong on certain issues. And regards this leading to moral relativism I would disagree. Historically it seems more likely that it was the abandoning of the famous reformation slogan Sola Scriptura that led to the development of moral relativism in western philosophy (it was only after introduced into theology).

Also the fact that life is so damn easy and materialistic. I'm 18, and most my friends are interested in sex and getting high paying jobs. Its really pathetic.

This I agree with. (I'm 20 and things aren't much different - at least with my non-christian friends).

Post-"Enlightenment" secularism and hedonism.

No disagreement from me .

Jonathan, the problem is simple. One foot in the world and one foot in Jesus.

Hmm, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Do you mean what John writes about in 1 John 2:15 "Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him." That too many people in the church love the world (in which case I would agree with you) or do you mean that we should be isolating ourselves from the world as in the monastic orders (in which case I disagree) or something else entirely!

And we conceal it by worshipping worship.

Could you please expand on what you mean by this. What does "worshiping worship" look like? (How would you recognise it?)

In response to the opening post I disagree that the church in America is in decline.

Okay. Most of the statistics I have seen relate to England and Europe so I don't know exactly what's going on in America except what I have heard (which tends to vary but is generally not great).

For the rest the reason is liberalism.

Okay.

The library your best friend, it could have it and if not they could order it for you. (though there might be a small fee, for me at my public library it's a dollar a book.

Unlikely, my local library is the university library and they have little in the way of christian books, and since it has nothing to do with my degree they are unlikely to want to get it. Still I'll look into it (not that I'll have much time to read it at the moment anyway with the half-dozen other books I have to read at the moment and the small matter of my degree ).

Thanks again for all your responses.

Jonathan.

[Anoetos]

Let me say it again:

There's nothing wrong with the "Western Church".