The Greatest Nation in the World EVER was....

[Amazing Rando]

An article from a 1997 US News and World Report found here has some interesting things to say:

Even if the absolute total is forever unknowable, there are other numbers that tell a haunting tale. In the 1960s, a Berkeley geographer, Carl Sauer, cited evidence of a 1496 census that Columbus's brother Bartholomew ordered for tax purposes on Hispaniola (now Haiti and the Dominican Republic). The Spanish counted 1.1 million Indians. Since that sum covered only Hispaniola's Spanish-controlled half and excluded children, Sauer concluded that 3 million Indians once inhabited the island. But a generation after 1492, a Spanish resident reported Hispaniola's Indian population had shrunk below 11,000.

The island's collapse was only a preview. By 1650, records suggest that only 6 million Indians remained in all of North America, South America, and the Caribbean. Subtract 6 million from even a conservative estimate of the 1492 population--like Denevan's consensus count of 54 million--and one dreadful conclusion is inescapable: The 150 years after Columbus's arrival brought a toll on human life in this hemisphere comparable to all of the world's losses in World War II.

[Arnold]

An article from a 1997 US News and World Report found here has some interesting things to say:

Even if the absolute total is forever unknowable, there are other numbers that tell a haunting tale. In the 1960s, a Berkeley geographer, Carl Sauer, cited evidence of a 1496 census that Columbus's brother Bartholomew ordered for tax purposes on Hispaniola (now Haiti and the Dominican Republic). The Spanish counted 1.1 million Indians. Since that sum covered only Hispaniola's Spanish-controlled half and excluded children, Sauer concluded that 3 million Indians once inhabited the island. But a generation after 1492, a Spanish resident reported Hispaniola's Indian population had shrunk below 11,000.

The island's collapse was only a preview. By 1650, records suggest that only 6 million Indians remained in all of North America, South America, and the Caribbean. Subtract 6 million from even a conservative estimate of the 1492 population--like Denevan's consensus count of 54 million--and one dreadful conclusion is inescapable: The 150 years after Columbus's arrival brought a toll on human life in this hemisphere comparable to all of the world's losses in World War II.

So what does all this prove - that America is evil and not worthy of recognition of a rich history of making this world a better place? You have to go back 500 years to bash an America that never existed then. What's the point? Do I have to go back in the thread to see if you objected to the Romans and their death-filled empire? Or is America the only one evil enough in your eyes to warrant this sort of scrutiny?

[Amazing Rando]

So what does all this prove - that America is evil and not worthy of recognition of a rich history of making this world a better place? You have to go back 500 years to bash an America that never existed then. What's the point? Do I have to go back in the thread to see if you objected to the Romans and their death-filled empire? Or is America the only one evil enough in your eyes to warrant this sort of scrutiny?

It's the only major one that many major revisionist historians have attempted to whitewash. While the estimates of tens of millions killed by American and British settlers are almost certainly enormous overstatements (at least in the context of the tens of millions who died at the hands of the Spanish Conquistadores and the diseases they brought), it's still one of the largest black marks on the history of an otherwise generally good nation's contributions to history.

[CatholicSage]

AAHH! I feel I shouldn't even need to say this, but "population decline" is not nearly the same as "murder." The prime culprit for Native American deaths has always been foreign diseases. These diseases killed the especially weak and vulnerable in society, namely the young and elderly. Now, the deaths of the elderly wouldn't have contributed very much to the population decline because they had already finished making offspring anyway, but the deaths of children cut off entire family lines and could greatly shrink population. It's not so much that millions were murdered, it's that the "right ones" were killed (though I hate using that terminology).

BTW, some population projections predict that Japan may, by 2050, have a population of about 100 million compared to 127 million today. Would it be accurate to say that between now and then, 27 million Japanese will be murdered?

[Conductor42]

You are pathetic...

So are you. Now do you have anything of value to say?

Those are numbers that nuts like Ward Churchill throw around - he's a proven liar.

I see you've mastered the art of poisoning the well, as well. Did it ever occur to you that Ward Churchill probably got his numbers from someone else - come on, I think it should be obvious to even you that he's a complete idiot and wouldn't be smart enough to come up with that sort of stuff on his own.

[Conductor42]

The point, dear Arnold (which you would have grasped, if you had listened to us...) is that the evil did not outweigh the good. Now that I've said this yet again, hopefully it will click inside your head.

Am I saying that America is some horrible evil place to live? Heck no.

[Arnold]

The point, dear Arnold (which you would have grasped, if you had listened to us...) is that the evil did not outweigh the good. Now that I've said this yet again, hopefully it will click inside your head.

Am I saying that America is some horrible evil place to live? Heck no.

The real point is that you accused me of justifying mass murder. You make me out to be some sort of monster because I see America as a net benefit to the world. Buzz off jerk...

[Jimmy Higgins]

So what does all this prove -

Well you were questioning how many millions of people lived in the Americas. Amazing Rando found a good reliable source to provide an answer. You should atleast thank him for that.

[Arnold]

Well you were questioning how many millions of people lived in the Americas. Amazing Rando found a good reliable source to provide an answer. You should atleast thank him for that.

I wasn't questioning it - I illustrated that it is at best a guessing game. And the issue is whether America is warranted the praise that I gave it.

[Jimmy Higgins]

I wasn't questioning it - I illustrated that it is at best a guessing game. And the issue is whether America is warranted the praise that I gave it.

You said "Every free country on the planet owes a debt of gratitude to the USA for either preserving their freedom or allowing their freedom to develop."

Does this include the Shi'ites we helped to lead a revolt and never backed up? Or the Afghani's we abandoned after we helped them defeat the Soviet invasion?

The US is worthy of some praise, however, it amazes me how infalliable some people think this country is.

[anthrogirl]

The US is worthy of some praise, however, it amazes me how infalliable some people think this country is.

It's very easy to think that one's country is infallible if one never leaves their country. To my knowledge, Americans tend to stay in America. This means that they can view the world only through their American spectacles.

ag

[Amazing Rando]

It's very easy to think that one's country is infallible if one never leaves their country. To my knowledge, Americans tend to stay in America. This means that they can view the world only through their American spectacles.

ag

I spent a semester in Australia in 2002- it was really eye-opening to see how differently the Aussies perceive Americans than we perceive ourselves.

[Amazing Rando]

Well you were questioning how many millions of people lived in the Americas. Amazing Rando found a good reliable source to provide an answer. You should atleast thank him for that.

Here's a link from the History Channel that roughly corroborates what the US News and World Report article had to say:

At the time of first European contact, North and South America may have been peopled by more than 90 million American Indians: about 10 million in America north of present-day Mexico; 30 million in Mexico; 11 million in Central America; 445,000 in the Caribbean islands; 30 million in the South American Andean region; and 9 million in the remainder of South America. These population figures are a rough estimate (some authorities cite much lower figures); exact figures are impossible to ascertain. When colonists began keeping records, the American Indian populations had been drastically reduced by war, famine, forced labor, and epidemics of European diseases.

[Arnold]

You said "Every free country on the planet owes a debt of gratitude to the USA for either preserving their freedom or allowing their freedom to develop."

Does this include the Shi'ites we helped to lead a revolt and never backed up? Or the Afghani's we abandoned after we helped them defeat the Soviet invasion?

The US is worthy of some praise, however, it amazes me how infalliable some people think this country is.

Uh, it was your oh so important UN who nixed going after Saddam the first time. And when you say America "abandoned" the Afghans you suggest that America was taking care of them in the first place - all the States did was help them militarily. When that military aid was no longer needed it ended. And aren't you one of the liberals that are always whining that America is so evil because we helped OBL during the Afghan/Soviet war?!? You can't have it both ways...

This is such a stretch - why are you sooooo determined to show that America is evil? It seems you will grasp at anything - please explain to me why anyone reading your desperate attemps should not come to the conclusion that you just plain hate America...

[Arnold]

It's very easy to think that one's country is infallible if one never leaves their country. To my knowledge, Americans tend to stay in America. This means that they can view the world only through their American spectacles.

ag

Well if that was aimed at me, I live in Caknuckleheadland - and believe me when I say that a lot of Caknuckleheads hate America. So my view of the world is not "only through their American spectacles".