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This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostYeah, I can honestly say that when I've heard people giving what was claimed to be a prophecy or interpretation of tongues (and the verdict on its veracity is still out for me), it was never some novel doctrine or weird bit of theology. It always simply reaffirmed what scripture already had to say. As you say, it was almost always some general edification or exhortation related to those within the immediate congregation.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWell, I wouldn't define prophecy as general edification, exhortation, or word of encouragement; those are spiritual gifts other than prophecy. Prophecy is, well, prophetic (like the statement of the girl in my post above).
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWell, I wouldn't define prophecy as general edification, exhortation, or word of encouragement; those are spiritual gifts other than prophecy. Prophecy is, well, prophetic (like the statement of the girl in my post above).
Here is an excerpt from the the AOG.org's - website enrichment journal.
Link
Enrichment Journal
1445 Boonville Ave., Springfield, MO 65802
Email: Phone: 417-862-2781, ext. 4095
To subscribe by phone: 1-800-641-4310
Copyright 2015 The General Council of the Assemblies of God
1445 North Boonville Ave., Springfield, MO 65802 • Telephone: 417-862-2781"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostYeah, I can honestly say that when I've heard people giving what was claimed to be a prophecy or interpretation of tongues (and the verdict on its veracity is still out for me), it was never some novel doctrine or weird bit of theology. It always simply reaffirmed what scripture already had to say. As you say, it was almost always some general edification or exhortation related to those within the immediate congregation.
Where would you say your hang up is? What would help you with ascertaining it's veracity...(in your mind)?"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Originally posted by Adrift View Post1 Corinthians 14:3-4 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.
LJ: A prophet can and does speak for God, but prophecy is explicitly a foretelling; note the criteria for determining whether or not a prophet is false (which I can't find at the moment ). And the AOG's interpretation of 1 Cor 14:20-26 (the only thing I have time to check at the moment - gotta run) is reading into the text what it wants to see IMO.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI agree that prophecy does that, but IMO it does not define prophecy.
LJ: A prophet can and does speak for God, but prophecy is explicitly a foretelling; note the criteria for determining whether or not a prophet is false (which I can't find at the moment ). And the AOG's interpretation of 1 Cor 14:20-26 (the only thing I have time to check at the moment - gotta run) is reading into the text what it wants to see IMO.
The NAS New Testament Greek LexiconDefinition - prophecy
- a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by foretelling future events
- Used in the NT of the utterance of OT prophets
- of the prediction of events relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions pertaining to it, the spirit of prophecy, the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due
- of the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets
- the gifts and utterances of these prophets, esp. of the predictions of the works of which, set apart to teach the gospel, will accomplish for the kingdom of Christ
LINKY
I think it certainly can and does mean foretelling, but it also has forthtelling in it's range of meaning. See 1. a. definition"What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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- prophecy
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostLJ: A prophet can and does speak for God, but prophecy is explicitly a foretelling; note the criteria for determining whether or not a prophet is false (which I can't find at the moment ). And the AOG's interpretation of 1 Cor 14:20-26 (the only thing I have time to check at the moment - gotta run) is reading into the text what it wants to see IMO.
I think multiple issues will come up:
1. Is the nature OT prophecy synonymous with NT prophecy?
2. Is the nature of the listener the same from the OT to the NT? (priest and people, vs. priesthood of believers)
3. Even with the OT prophets, their 'prophecy' was not limited to explicitly 'foretelling'. The message was often exhortation for Israel to turn back to the LORD. [the key sign of the false prophet (see below) is that they would turn people away from God]
4. When looking at Deut. and the nature of the prophet and discernment - foretelling was not the only issue / criteria. Rather, IMO, the bigger and more important criteria is whether the prophet caused them to turn away from the LORD. (the 'or' in Deut. 18:22 could just as easily be translated 'and') Remember, Deut. 18 would be against the backdrop of what was already said in Deut. 13:
If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
The other thing to consider is what Adrift mentioned...
1 Corinthians 14:3
On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation
It seems to me that Paul is not defining prophecy per se, but he is stating its purpose -- and so the design is based on the purpose. If a 'prophecy' does the exact opposite of these things (causing fear, discouragement, division, etc.), you can probably be sure that it is not from God.
That being said, I do think the verse is clear in defining the purpose and intent of true prophecy and thus cannot be discounted when discussing the nature of prophecy and what prophecy is, is not, and what it is limited to.
Just some things to think about....Last edited by phat8594; 02-18-2015, 05:52 PM.
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostRight, prophecy is literally "Speaking for God". So, it can be, but is not necessarily a foretelling of the future. I have been prophesied over that WAS a future event... and it's basically come true...
Where would you say your hang up is? What would help you with ascertaining it's veracity...(in your mind)?
I also know of a number of apostates who've claimed to speak in tongues when they were Christians, and as far as I know, they were still capable of doing so, and that made curious. I think that can be accounted for too, but its still strange.
Finally, I've heard people who, as far as know, were never Christians, who used some form of glossolalia. Usually in things like performance art (Diamanda Galas comes to mind). Again, I can think of things that would account for that, but its a cumulative thing I suppose.
The prophecy and interpretation of tongues I'm familiar with often times were vague enough that, while occasionally they prophesied a pretty precise future event, what was being spoken could have been good guess work. Or if it was an exhortation, it seemed to me to be, again, pretty broad and vague.
I don't know. Its one of those areas in my walk that I do not dismiss, but that I'm left with enough questions that I put it to the side until I can have more understanding. I suppose I really ought to pray about it.
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We've seen in our own lives that the study of scripture is difficult because the matter is vast and complex, so it's not surprising that Paul does not forbid speaking in tongue in public, as long as it is interpreted. It's the only way that complex teachings important for growth can be extracted from scripture. So prophecy apart from foretelling, encouraging, warning against sin, is, in the main, opening mysteries:
1 Corinthians 4:1This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.
1 Corinthians 13:2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and
if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing
Daniel 2:29"As Your Majesty was lying there, your mind turned to things to come, and the
revealer of mysteries showed you what is going to happen.
Daniel 2:28 but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries.
Job 11:7Can you solve the mysteries of God?
Luke 8:10And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of
God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND
Daniel 2:47The king said to Daniel, "Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings
and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.
Luke 8:10And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.
Again, mysteries is flowery speech for complex teachings, doctrine, which are different for different people groups. The church in Corinth, Phillipi, etc. would have more difficulty than that in Jerusalem, being in the west and being Gentile. Today we are further separated from both, both in distance as well as in time.
Of course the churches could come up with pretty strange conclusions needing Paul to get back to them with his final pronouncements, as in his ruling on the rule of women in public, staying that in the church of God, he accepted no other practice than his own view.
Philippians 4:12I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need.
Pulpit commentary
Quote
Verse 12. - I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound. St. Paul had experience both of sorrow and of joy, both of distress and of comfort; he knew how to bear himself in both, because his chiefest joy was "in the Lord." This abiding joy raised him above the vicissitudes of this mortal state, and gave him an αὐτάρεκια, a Christian independence, which enabled him to act becomingly both in adversity and in prosperity. Everywhere and in all things I am instructed; literally, as R.V., in everything and in all things; as we say, "in each and all," in every condition separately and in all collectively. The R.V. translates more accurately, "have I learned the secret." The Greek μεμύημαι means properly, "I have been' initiated." It is a word adapted from the old Greek mysteries; comp. B.C.ngel, "Disciplina arcana imbutus sum, ignota mundo." St. Paul represents the advanced Christian life as a mystery, the secrets of which are taught by God. the Holy Ghost to the soul that longs to prove in its own personal experience "what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." St. Paul frequently uses the word μυστήριον, mystery, for the truths once hidden but now brought to light by the gospel. Both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. The word rendered "to be full" (χορτάζεσθαι) is strictly used of animals, and means "to be foddered;" in the New Testament and later Greek it is used also of men, without any depreciatory significance, as in Matthew 5:6, "They shall be filled (χορτασθήσονται)."Last edited by footwasher; 02-18-2015, 06:56 PM.
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostYou can certainly argue that and believe that if you wish...I don't think it's so. For instance, The NAS Greek Lexicon says:
The NAS New Testament Greek LexiconDefinition - prophecy
- a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by foretelling future events
- Used in the NT of the utterance of OT prophets
- of the prediction of events relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions pertaining to it, the spirit of prophecy, the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due
- of the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets
- the gifts and utterances of these prophets, esp. of the predictions of the works of which, set apart to teach the gospel, will accomplish for the kingdom of Christ
LINKY
I think it certainly can and does mean foretelling, but it also has forthtelling in it's range of meaning. See 1. a. definitionEnter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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- prophecy
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Originally posted by phat8594 View PostI am guessing you are referring to Deut. 18?
I think multiple issues will come up:
1. Is the nature OT prophecy synonymous with NT prophecy?
2. Is the nature of the listener the same from the OT to the NT? (priest and people, vs. priesthood of believers)
3. Even with the OT prophets, their 'prophecy' was not limited to explicitly 'foretelling'. The message was often exhortation for Israel to turn back to the LORD. [the key sign of the false prophet (see below) is that they would turn people away from God]
4. When looking at Deut. and the nature of the prophet and discernment - foretelling was not the only issue / criteria. Rather, IMO, the bigger and more important criteria is whether the prophet caused them to turn away from the LORD. (the 'or' in Deut. 18:22 could just as easily be translated 'and') Remember, Deut. 18 would be against the backdrop of what was already said in Deut. 13:
The other thing to consider is what Adrift mentioned...
1 Corinthians 14:3
On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation
It seems to me that Paul is not defining prophecy per se, but he is stating its purpose -- and so the design is based on the purpose. If a 'prophecy' does the exact opposite of these things (causing fear, discouragement, division, etc.), you can probably be sure that it is not from God.
That being said, I do think the verse is clear in defining the purpose and intent of true prophecy and thus cannot be discounted when discussing the nature of prophecy and what prophecy is, is not, and what it is limited to.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Regarding prophecy, Peter wrote, ". . . For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. . . . " -- 2 Peter 1:16-21.
Paul wrote that the value of the interpretation of the gift of tongues, ". . . I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater [is] he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 14:5-6. He mentions 4 things, which I understand come of two speaking gifts, prophesying and the word of knowledge. I underlined two that I understand comes of the gifts of prophecies, when tongues is followed by the interpretation of tongues.
The prophecy called the Revelation of Jesus Christ reveals this of prophecy, ". . . for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." -- Revelation 19:10.
Jesus Himself said, ". . . These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me. . . ." -- Luke 24:44.
Now prophecy called the Revelation of Jesus Christ has this seal on it, ". . . Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand. . . . For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the tree of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book." -- Revelation 1:3; 22:18-19.
Now the early church prior to all the writings given to become the NT had those speaking gifts to give it its teachings, spiritual knowledge, prophesies and revelations. The interpretation being the prophecy called the Revelation of Jesus Christ was add last, and no revelations are to be added to its hearing, closing what was to become the NT.
Paul wrote, ". . . For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." -- Ephesians 2:18-22.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYes, I think that's it - though for some reason I was thinking Jeremiah.
That being said - what is interesting is how Jeremiah contains a passage that specifically discusses prophecy that is conditional upon the response of the hearer. (Jer. 18) [a prophecy which may or may not come to pass]
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostMore to the point, IMO, the same Spirit is acting through the prophet.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI do not dispute that prophets can convey messages other than foretelling.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostEr, the "or" in Deut. 18:20 explicitly expands on the backdrop of Deut. 13.
My point in the 'or' is that it could just as well be translated 'and' (and specifically is called out in footnotes) - and so we can't discount that. In the case that it would have understood as an 'and' to the original audience, that would mean that presumption by itself would not be cause for death, but presumption and
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThe verse is indeed clear in defining the purpose of true prophecy. It does not, however, define prophecy. I'm not sure why you're not seeing the distinction. On the other hand, I'm feeling wretched at the moment, so I'm hoping this is somewhat coherent nonetheless.
Hopefully that made more sense!
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Originally posted by phat8594 View PostYep. And from what I have studied - it seems that the primary message of the prophet is not one of foretelling (although that does occur) but one of speaking for God. Often times in the OT this is a message of guiding people back to God during their times of rebellion.
Not quite sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing... My point is that, yes Deut. 18:20 is placed on the backdrop of Deut. 13 - in which Deut. 13 actually has the 'sign' come to pass, while Deut. 18 does not. The point, in both is whether the 'prophet' is turning people away from God. If so - they are a false prophet.
My point in the 'or' is that it could just as well be translated 'and' (and specifically is called out in footnotes) - and so we can't discount that. In the case that it would have understood as an 'and' to the original audience, that would mean that presumption by itself would not be cause for death, but presumption and
Sorry - I actually meant to affirm that there is a distinction. That being said - design is always based on purpose, right? (e.g. a chair is meant to allow us to sit, gum to chew, eye to see, etc.) So my point is that although the verse doesn't 'define' prophecy (nor is it meant to, IMO) - it does give us the basis of design. So the definition of prophecy must be consistent with its purpose. That's all I was trying to say..hahaEnter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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