What Is TWeb's Thoughts on Charismatic Christianity

[Adrift]

I'm still having a hard time comprehending your meaning here. Let's split it up into bite sized pieces.

Well if God commanded you to deliver people who made a mistake by being trapped in Egypt,

I'm assuming here that you're referring to the children of Israel stuck in the desert for 40 years. Correct?

being sellouts, serving da man, living a life of crass self centredness, and being crushed by the world, into living a self giving life, wouldn't you ask Him for help, proof that God could spread a banquet in the middle of the desert?

I'm assuming you're still referencing the children of Israel in the desert, but are saying that they should ask God for help, and some how metaphorically transitioning this to the modern day Christian. Sort of saying that modern day Christians are living in this corrupt world, but are asking if the modern day "children" would ask God for favor and mercy...

Israel was stuck in Egypt, and they often asked themselves , "This is how we are to be blessings to the world?"

I'm losing you here.

How bout you stop talking in Bible talk and Christianese, and just speak plain. That might help me understand what you're talking about.

[footwasher]

I'm still having a hard time comprehending your meaning here. Let's split it up into bite sized pieces.

I'm assuming here that you're referring to the children of Israel stuck in the desert for 40 years. Correct?

No, I'm talking about God's sheep, those who have ideals, who serve systems that take their time, from what time they would prefer to spend with their loved ones and their God, and take away their principles, in the pursuit of selfish interest. Israel in slavery to Egypt is a type of God's People oppressed by the world.

I'm assuming you're still referencing the children of Israel in the desert, but are saying that they should ask God for help, and some how metaphorically transitioning this to the modern day Christian. Sort of saying that modern day Christians are living in this corrupt world, but are asking if the modern day "children" would ask God for favor and mercy...

No, I'm still referencing how God wants to use us to rescue good people from the world.

I'm losing you here.

We must read everything through the filter of the promise to Abraham. Just as Abraham held to the oral tradition of God's promise to save the world through the Seed of the woman, israel held to the tradition of the promise to Abraham. Oral traditions are amazing. You should visit with the aborigines sometimes, and listen to their oral traditions.

How bout you stop talking in Bible talk and Christianese, and just speak plain. That might That might help me understand what you're talking about.

Language is ephemeral, and that's why people have to reiterate, repeat the same thing in different ways. Good thing Scripture does this too. The Message is the same, just repeated in different ways. You’ll understand when you find the “great treasure” in the field. After asking for the Holy Spirit to help understand Scripture.

I’ll of course keep repeating explanations as long as you ask for them. I’m sure one will stick!

[Pentecost]

What is Tweb's view on Charismatic Christianity? I think cautiously optimistic is a fair summary, there was quite a bit of discussion in the FB group when Strange Fire was published.

Well, to preface this, I think everyone around here knows I am a Pentecostal, and I'm happy that Adrift has decided to start a thread, we sorta talked about it in Civics, but I know I for one didn't want to derail the thread by going deep.

Up front, I do believe the gifts of the spirit are present and accounted for in the here and now. I think speaking in tongues is a sign of those gifts, and thought at one time that I demonstrated it in my personal life, but am unsure if what I practiced was the real thing. I'm interested in views for and against the charismatic movement here. But let's keep argumentation at a minimum if possible. The thread is open to all views.

I would argue that you would know if it was fake because it takes effort to pretend at something. I would also encourage you to think about recontinuing the practice.

I

remember being quite surprised that charismatica demonstrated itself in a wide variety of denominations. The first time I heard of Catholic charismatics I was pretty stunned, but they do exist. Do they exist in the Eastern Orthodox faith?

I've read histories of Pentecostalism that traces roots to Wesley and through him to the Moravians which was influenced by some Byzantine practices, I do not know the EO view on the gifts but some accounts of their experiences sound rather familiar to me.

One would think they would what with the EO's focus on mysticism, but I don't know. How bout other denominational views. What about charismatic Lutherans, Baptists, Anglicans, etc.?

Yes, yes, and yes. The Alliance of a Renewal Churches is a charismatic Lutheran organization. Pentecostal Free Will Baptist, (along with many early Pentecostal churches) were founded by former Baptist preachers the Keswickian view of Sanctification is a holdover from the Reformed aspect Baptists brought to the movement as opposed to the Wesleyan Holiness Pentecostals, and as for Anglicans? Can I just say Yes?

Let's also discuss controversial charismatic views like the Word-Faith/Prosperity Gospel movement, and the Kingdom Now movement. Are these charismatic beliefs totally and utterly anti-orthodox?

Would you like to provide definitions of these groups we can work with? I don't want to talk past each other on what these movements actually do and believe.

When and where did the charismatic movement find its modern origins, is it purely a result of things like the Azusa Street Revival, or can we trace its modern influence to the early 70s Jesus Freak movement?

In modern history there has been three distinct movements, the first Pentecostalism, circa 1900 was strongly influenced by the Holiness movement and traces back to John Wesley (and I would argue farther back) there were multiple revivals around this time the two most famous are Azusa Street and the Welsh revivals. Then in the 60's mainline church goers started spontaneously manifesting the very same Spirit, and the Third Wave, aka the Signs and Wonders movement started about the late 80's and was an independent outpouring amongst Evangelicals. The lines are very blurry in actual practices and beliefs have mixed relatively freely, but a focus on experience is a common factor.

These questions and more deserve a dialog. But I'm not sure anyone is really interested in engaging them. Prove me wrong.

These are some of my favorite questions. Another I think worthy of discussion is the concept of laying on hands and the phenomena of "Fire Tunnels" and "portals from heaven."

[Raphael]

What is Tweb's view on Charismatic Christianity?

TWeb doesn't have a specific view on it. Just lots of individual views.

More than one staff member is Charismatic (myself included)

[Adrift]

No, I'm talking about God's sheep, those who have ideals, who serve systems that take their time, from what time they would prefer to spend with their loved ones and their God, and take away their principles, in the pursuit of selfish interest. Israel in slavery to Egypt is a type of God's People oppressed by the world.

No, I'm still referencing how God wants to use us to rescue good people from the world.

We must read everything through the filter of the promise to Abraham. Just as Abraham held to the oral tradition of God's promise to save the world through the Seed of the woman, israel held to the tradition of the promise to Abraham. Oral traditions are amazing. You should visit with the aborigines sometimes, and listen to their oral traditions.

Language is ephemeral, and that's why people have to reiterate, repeat the same thing in different ways. Good thing Scripture does this too. The Message is the same, just repeated in different ways. You’ll understand when you find the “great treasure” in the field. After asking for the Holy Spirit to help understand Scripture.

I’ll of course keep repeating explanations as long as you ask for them. I’m sure one will stick!

I'm sure you mean well, but your posts are terribly confusing to me. I'm a Christian who's been around the block some 30 years. Still, i have no idea what your intent or your meaning is, and/or how it relates to my Original Post. I sincerely don't mean this as a negative reproach. I would be more than happy to meet you half way, but your use of metaphor simply defies my understanding. Could you, would you, possibly bring your (what seems to me) metaphorical language down to my level of understanding? It would be very helpful. I do, sincerely, want to understand your position. Thank you.

[Adrift]

TWeb doesn't have a specific view on it. Just lots of individual views.

More than one staff member is Charismatic (myself included)

Do tell, who else fits the format. (or is that trade secrets )

[footwasher]

I'm sure you mean well, but your posts are terribly confusing to me. I'm a Christian who's been around the block some 30 years. Still, i have no idea what your intent or your meaning is, and/or how it relates to my Original Post. I sincerely don't mean this as a negative reproach. I would be more than happy to meet you half way, but your use of metaphor simply defies my understanding. Could you, would you, possibly bring your (what seems to me) metaphorical language down to my level of understanding? It would be very helpful. I do, sincerely, want to understand your position. Thank you.

I’m glad the Pentecostals and the Charismatics have come forward with their views, and perhaps that wiil help in clarifying what place gifts have in the Christian understanding.

Generally, it seems that the two groups found the state of their walk with God to be a weak version of the Biblical account, and prayed for “revival”, reawakening of that recorded experience.

Seymour was a man of colour who put his head in a bucket and refused to remove it till God revived His Church, so my Pastor taught.

[Adrift]

What is Tweb's view on Charismatic Christianity? I think cautiously optimistic is a fair summary, there was quite a bit of discussion in the FB group when Strange Fire was published.

I guess I missed out on that. who is Strange Fire. Does he/she post here?

Well, to preface this, I think everyone around here knows I am a Pentecostal, and I'm happy that Adrift has decided to start a thread, we sorta talked about it in Civics, but I know I for one didn't want to derail the thread by going deep.

Totally understandable. Its a topic I'm much interested in.

I would argue that you would know if it was fake because it takes effort to pretend at something. I would also encourage you to think about recontinuing the practice.

When speaking in tongues, I never had/have the feeling I was faking it. Occasionally in circumstances of distress, I find myself breaking out in tongues without being totally aware of it. But I still find myself confused about whether or not what I'm doing is legitimate. Silly perhaps, but it weighs on me. My background is in a Jesus Freak cult called the Way Ministry (or the Way International). There were many beneficial aspects to being in that cult. They taught me to take a skeptical view of orthodox denominational doctrine, but it also taught me rudimentary concepts of study. Dr. Paul Wierwille (the head of the Way) taught us to not take his word on "it" (his interpretation of the Bible), but to study it out for ourselves. And there was a popular acronym for speaking in tongues called S.I.T. We were taught to Speak In Tongues often as a personal prayer language. We also did interpretation of tongues. I remember I was taught to do this on request, but never felt comfortable about it. The last time I was asked was when I was with some ex-Way believers in Rhode Island....They all spoke in tongues, and I was asked to interpret. I believe this was in 95 or so, attempting to find my way. My mother, who was in Ohio at the time, but was a well known twig fellowship leader (a type of home pastor, if you will). So I was expected to be strong in this practice. I shyly asked to be passed over. We were in a field. It was autumn. A beautiful day. I was embarrassed, but no one cared that I didn't do it. They loved me. They were moving out of the cultic influence of the Way, but it was still strong in us. Left me confused, but okay. Weird that I remember it to this day.

I've read histories of Pentecostalism that traces roots to Wesley and through him to the Moravians which was influenced by some Byzantine practices, I do not know the EO view on the gifts but some accounts of their experiences sound rather familiar to me. Yes, yes, and yes. The Alliance of a Renewal Churches is a charismatic Lutheran organization. Pentecostal Free Will Baptist, (along with many early Pentecostal churches) were founded by former Baptist preachers the Keswickian view of Sanctification is a holdover from the Reformed aspect Baptists brought to the movement as opposed to the Wesleyan Holiness Pentecostals, and as for Anglicans? Can I just say Yes?

I know very little about Wesley to my chagrin. Seems like someone I should know more about. I'm learning lots from this. Thanks for that! I'd say Yes to all of the above too. Anglicans seem pretty much a free for all. I've been to Baptist churches where they were very charismatic, so I know that's a thing there. Lutherans I sincerely don't know about. They seem so serious.

Would you like to provide definitions of these groups we can work with? I don't want to talk past each other on what these movements actually do and believe.

Not really. You probably know more about those movement than I do. I have fringe knowledge about them. So anything you or others want to add, just consider me an observer.

In modern history there has been three distinct movements, the first Pentecostalism, circa 1900 was strongly influenced by the Holiness movement and traces back to John Wesley (and I would argue farther back) there were multiple revivals around this time the two most famous are Azusa Street and the Welsh revivals. Then in the 60's mainline church goers started spontaneously manifesting the very same Spirit, and the Third Wave, aka the Signs and Wonders movement started about the late 80's and was an independent outpouring amongst Evangelicals. The lines are very blurry in actual practices and beliefs have mixed relatively freely, but a focus on experience is a common factor.

Fascinating stuff. What do you think about early proponents of the charismatic movement like Smith Wigglesworth?

These are some of my favorite questions. Another I think worthy of discussion is the concept of laying on hands and the phenomena of "Fire Tunnels" and "portals from heaven."

I'm glad to hear someone is happy discussing this topic. I like discussing this topic as well. I don't know anything about fire tunnels or portals from heaven. Do tell!

[Cow Poke]

I think one of the biggest travesties of the "charismatic movement" is that so many churches seem to have totally abandoned the Holy Spirit, for fear of "disorder" breaking out.

I don't think we can life an effective Christian life apart from the guiding/power of the Holy Spirit.

I have personally seen some pretty blatant abuses of the Holy Spirit - most notably the "holy laughter" phenomenon. I frequently preach and teach on the Holy Spirit, and the need to do things "decently and in order".

[Obsidian]

Speaking in tongues violates the Lord's Prayer.

Luke 11
1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Nothing in there about "Blah blah bah lah bada."

In the passage below, it seems fairly clear that the speaker understands his own tongue, but that it is the audience who fails to understand. The understanding is "unfruitful" because the audience cannot get it, and thus cannot say "Amen."

1 Corinthians 14
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

[Obsidian]

In the cult like ministry I was in before I became an orthodox Christian, interpretation of tongues was done after someone stood up and spoke in tongues. There were two types of tongues. One that was done in public and one done in private. The one in public was always followed by an interpretation. So someone would stand up, speak in an unknown tongue, and then someone else would stand up and interpret it. I don't know if that was the right thing to do, but it seemed right at the time.

The next time Barack Obama gives a speech in a foreign country, see if that's how the interpreter does it. Does the interpreter wait until the whole thing is over, and then reconvey the general meaning in his own words in the new tongue?

[mossrose]

Strange Fire was a conference held at Grace Community Church, John MacArthur's church, in the fall of 2013.

You can hear all of the sessions for free at gty.com. Very valuable stuff.

MacArthur also wrote a book with the same title around the same time. The conference sessions have way more information than the book, although that is also very good.

[Cow Poke]

The next time Barack Obama gives a speech in a foreign country, see if that's how the interpreter does it. Does the interpreter wait until the whole thing is over, and then reconvey the general meaning in his own words in the new tongue?

I don't think you can really draw a parallel between a speech given for political or geopolitical purposes, and a revelation or proclamation from the Lord. I think it's pretty obvious that, due to the LENGTH of the material (either a speech by a politician or an entire sermon given by Billy Graham) it's just impractical to wait to the very end to interpret.

On a SIDE NOTE, however.... I remember watching Billy Graham on TV preach in foreign countries, using an interpreter.... and Billy Graham might say "And THIS is how we know that God loved us SO MUCH that He gave his only begotten son to purchase for us redemption..." and the interpreter would say about five syllables. OR, Billy Graham would say "And Jesus died", and the interpreter would launch into quite a lengthy "interpretation".

[Christianbookworm]

I think one of the biggest travesties of the "charismatic movement" is that so many churches seem to have totally abandoned the Holy Spirit, for fear of "disorder" breaking out.

I don't think we can life an effective Christian life apart from the guiding/power of the Holy Spirit.

I have personally seen some pretty blatant abuses of the Holy Spirit - most notably the "holy laughter" phenomenon. I frequently preach and teach on the Holy Spirit, and the need to do things "decently and in order".

Holy laughter??? Are they trying to use God to get a high???

[T-Shirt Ninja]

I remember being quite surprised that charismatica demonstrated itself in a wide variety of denominations. The first time I heard of Catholic charismatics I was pretty stunned, but they do exist. Do they exist in the Eastern Orthodox faith? One would think they would what with the EO's focus on mysticism, but I don't know. How bout other denominational views. What about charismatic Lutherans, Baptists, Anglicans, etc.?

EO largely rejects charismatic Pentecostal manifestations. There are a very few who practice it but they are an extreme minority. Most Orthodox reject it primarily because it's new and it began outside the Church. Can mystical gifts be bestowed? Yes. There have been people in Orthodox history who have been prophetic (St John of Kronstadt predicting the martyrdom of Tsar Nicholas II years before it happened comes to mind). Also, I've heard stories of monks who were able to speak to pilgrims and the pilgrims later found out that the monk didn't speak their language yet they understood them perfectly.

It seems to me that charismatic gifts are real but not given to just anyone. I have doubts that most manifestations from Pentecostal circles outside of Orthodoxy are genuine, especially the use of tongues.