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What Is TWeb's Thoughts on Charismatic Christianity

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Holy laughter??? Are they trying to use God to get a high???
    A whole 'nuther thread.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      By the way Max, What's it like living in a nation where there are, for lack of better words, a more primitive interpretation of the Gospel? Do you find that the miraculous if often more present there than in, say New Zealand
      Yes, to an extent. Thais are very aware of the 'spirit world' and the vast majority firmly believe in Ghosts, evil spirits, magic, and all sorts of superstitions. So they have pretty much no problem believing that Jesus can heal and deliver them from demons.



      Originally posted by Adrift
      (or was it that you're from Australia, sorry about my naivety on that matter. They seem like the same country from my perspective cept for the Tolkien's work there and Flight of the Conchords). I don't mind so much if folks down under mistake Canada with the USA. Its all basically the same to me.
      Us New Zealanders usually find North American's deep ignorance about the rest of the world cute.


      Originally posted by Adrift
      For that matter, what are your thoughts on this Raphael? You live in South Africa, and I imagine you're sort of far away from this debate (course I can't help but think your ghettos are something like the movie District 9. That's obviously probably completely wrong, but eh, what do I know. ). How far away are you from the evangelical charismatic movements like those founded by Reindhard Bonnke. Do those even pop up on your radar at all?
      I believe Raphael is a South African who has emigrated to NZ....
      ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        You're a teacher, right? Right there I'm fascinated by the work you do. Can't be easy. I'm sure we've talked about this in private, but do you lead a ministry there, or do you participate in an established church?
        I work as a teacher, and am a 'lay preacher' in an established Thai church, so I work with local Christians, supporting their ministry. My (Thai) pastor is awesome, it's a real privilege to work alongside him.
        ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
          Speaking in tongues violates the Lord's Prayer.

          Luke 11
          1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.


          Nothing in there about "Blah blah bah lah bada."
          Ummm... Firstly, you're making an Argument from Silence, (i.e. a fallacy). Jesus didn't teach us to pray in English either, so we shouldn't violate the Lord's prayer by doing that, right?


          Secondly, is "Blah blah bah lah bada." really 'speaking in tongues' as the biblical writers understood it? I'm thinking...'No.' So just making a meaningless 'baby talk' doesn't mean you're actually speaking in tongues.


          Thirdly, I think Paul would have a pretty big problem with your argument... ...do you accept Paul's writings as canon?

          Originally posted by Obsidian
          In the passage below, it seems fairly clear that the speaker understands his own tongue, but that it is the audience who fails to understand. The understanding is "unfruitful" because the audience cannot get it, and thus cannot say "Amen."

          1 Corinthians 14
          14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
          That's one possible interpretation.
          ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
            The next time Barack Obama gives a speech in a foreign country, see if that's how the interpreter does it. Does the interpreter wait until the whole thing is over, and then reconvey the general meaning in his own words in the new tongue?
            Speaking as someone who operates in two very different languages every single day, sometimes that's the only way you can correctly interpret what's being said.
            ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              I think I get that. So essentially what you're saying is that, say, Africa, South America, parts of the Middle East, maybe even more primitive areas of South East Asia are more receptive to the miraculous, as well as the gifts of the spirit, because they're not necessarily bogged down with a sort of materialist worldview we find in industrial Western societies where we seek to find a way to explain away everything in psychological, sociological, or naturalistic means. Is that correct? If so, is there a way, do you think, that one could decipher, say, psychology from, let's say, actual spiritual manifestation (either positive or negative)? Is that also to say that you believe the gifts of the spirit, and/or the miraculous, are completely dead in the Western world?
              Yes, I believe, for the most part, these gifts are dead in our culture. What did James suggest for people in the church to do when they were sick? To seek healing from the church elders. What's the first thing we do or suggest to one another? Take a pill or seek a medical professional. I'm not saying we should try and change this because we simply can't. From birth to adulthood we're literally enculturated (brainwashed if you will) into a worldview that is antithetical to a supernatural worldview. We're under the curse of Matthew 12:39. Even if we asked for a sign, we probably wouldn't be given one because our worldview is designed to reject it. Now I'm certainly not saying we can't be saved, but obviously a life without the gifts of the Spirit makes our faith much more difficult to attain and the door to doubt is open much wider to us.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                I work as a teacher, and am a 'lay preacher' in an established Thai church, so I work with local Christians, supporting their ministry. My (Thai) pastor is awesome, it's a real privilege to work alongside him.
                I'm hoping you've told him that.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  I'm hoping you've told him that.
                  ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by MaxVel
                    Speaking as someone who operates in two very different languages every single day, sometimes that's the only way you can correctly interpret what's being said.
                    No, it's a completely improper way to interpret. And it shows that these "interpretations" are fake. Your knowledge of two languages has nothing to do with the issue.

                    Firstly, you're making an Argument from Silence
                    No. When Jesus says, "Pray like this," that is not an argument from silence.

                    That's one possible interpretation.
                    No, it's THE interpretation. When Paul says, My "understanding" is unfruitful, that means that he personally has an UNDERSTANDING of what he is saying. Yet he goes on to explain that the "unlearned" do not understand. If you have another interpretation of the verse, then your interpretation is wrong.

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                    • #40
                      Quick note, I used charismatic movement to refer to the whole wide range from historic Pentecostals like the Assemblies of God, all the way to Catholic outpourings, and Power Evangelism, I use Charismatic Movement to refer specifically to the Second Wave of the Holy Spirit. (Approx 60's and 70's and their results)

                      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      I guess I missed out on that. who is Strange Fire. Does he/she post here?
                      John MacArthur wrote a book and held a conference that declared the charismatic movement almost completely illegitimate with leaders all being either deceivers or deceived. He was very scathing. RT Kendall wrote a response book titled "Holy Fire" that I would recommend.

                      When speaking in tongues, I never had/have the feeling I was faking it. Occasionally in circumstances of distress, I find myself breaking out in tongues without being totally aware of it. But I still find myself confused about whether or not what I'm doing is legitimate.
                      You know your situation better than I do (obviously), but it sounds to me like you have tongues and should feel free to practice it as described in Scripture.
                      Silly perhaps, but it weighs on me. My background is in a Jesus Freak cult called the Way Ministry (or the Way International). There were many beneficial aspects to being in that cult. They taught me to take a skeptical view of orthodox denominational doctrine, but it also taught me rudimentary concepts of study. Dr. Paul Wierwille (the head of the Way) taught us to not take his word on "it" (his interpretation of the Bible), but to study it out for ourselves.
                      I am not familiar with this group, Wikipedia seems to indicate they hold to a form of Arianism. If you want to talk about them I'd be willing to listen if not I understand.
                      And there was a popular acronym for speaking in tongues called S.I.T. We were taught to Speak In Tongues often as a personal prayer language. We also did interpretation of tongues. I remember I was taught to do this on request, but never felt comfortable about it. The last time I was asked was when I was with some ex-Way believers in Rhode Island....They all spoke in tongues, and I was asked to interpret. I believe this was in 95 or so, attempting to find my way. My mother, who was in Ohio at the time, but was a well known twig fellowship leader (a type of home pastor, if you will). So I was expected to be strong in this practice. I shyly asked to be passed over. We were in a field. It was autumn. A beautiful day. I was embarrassed, but no one cared that I didn't do it. They loved me. They were moving out of the cultic influence of the Way, but it was still strong in us. Left me confused, but okay. Weird that I remember it to this day.
                      I have never participated in this sort of thing with an interpreter, but I am given to believe it can be an authentic expression of both the gift of tongues and the gift of interpretation of tongues per 1 Corinthians 13.


                      I know very little about Wesley to my chagrin. Seems like someone I should know more about. I'm learning lots from this. Thanks for that!
                      The easiest way to trace to Wesley is that the 19th century Holiness movement was a splinter group of Methodism that emphasized Christian Perfectionism as a distinct second work of the Spirit in believers free them from the necessity of sin, and from this Pentecostalism grew out of, and largely replaced. Other ties can be found in his journal, August 15, 1750 for example he wrote of Monatinists being "real, scriptural Christians" and in various teachings and journals he pontificates on the missing gifts that he relates to both holiness and outreach. The Works of John Wesley even gives a list of gifts penned by him. I do need to go back to studying him.
                      I'd say Yes to all of the above too. Anglicans seem pretty much a free for all. I've been to Baptist churches where they were very charismatic, so I know that's a thing there.
                      It was an Episcoalian rector who is often credited with starting the Second Wave. Dennis Bennett if you want to research it.
                      Lutherans I sincerely don't know about. They seem so serious.
                      Haha, right? The children's director at my church was raised Lutheran but she attended Dallas Baptist (I think) and is in the process of being certified with the A/G.

                      Not really. You probably know more about those movement than I do. I have fringe knowledge about them. So anything you or others want to add, just consider me an observer.
                      Well then, I'm going to go cover what I know of them and where I disagree with them.

                      Word of Faith takes seriously the idea that there is a supernatural power in words, and there is a supernatural power in belief. I think there is a measure of truth to this, however; it is magic. Magic is not a Christian practice, and many seem to confuse Biblical principles of prayer with the ability to get what you want by your own power, and by your own authority. A related teaching is that Christians are not quite human in the usual sense anymore, and through their adoption by God Christians are made into gods. Which seems to be mostly bad word choice. I do not think that it is necessarily heresy, but it is dangerous.

                      Prosperity Gospel theology places an undue emphasis on comfort and happiness. It ties a direct connection between piety and rewards. If you love God and give large offerings then you will be rewarded with even more money than you gave. It is vicious because preachers take time out of what should be sermons to promulgate their ideas on money that have driven many to financial ruin.

                      Kingdom Now is a branch of Dominion teachings that hold to the doctrine that Satan took control of this world and that if they obey God he will give them control over (for example) the Kingdom of Science and once they have control it will be time to use their power to enforce Christian morality. It is connected to the Latter Rain movement (based off a goofy reading of Acts 2) and the New Apostolic Reformation (which claims the offices of apostle and prophet were restored). It's connections are far sketchier than it as an independent teaching is.

                      Fascinating stuff. What do you think about early proponents of the charismatic movement like Smith Wigglesworth?
                      I don't know a huge amount about him, but he seems fairly normative except for two things, 1. Prayer handkerchiefs which are silly. 2. He sometimes punched people he was praying for. These aren't Christian practices but his overall ministry was good.

                      I'm glad to hear someone is happy discussing this topic. I like discussing this topic as well. I don't know anything about fire tunnels or portals from heaven. Do tell!
                      Fire tunnel is a what it's called when a leadership team forms two lines facing each other and then the congregation walks between and as they go through the leadership team prays and lays on hand the people walking through. It seems to have been invented by Bethel (Redding) to be an efficient way to pray individually for tens, even hundreds of people. I have participated in one at the prompting of the Spirit, (I thought it was very weird and wasn't going to) I found it very edifying.

                      I really don't know much about portals from heaven, I have a friend who's charismatic and he was at Pensacola within the past decade and apparently it was a practice he disagreed with. I was kinda hoping other people knew about it here.

                      Holy Laughter: A phenomena wherein the presence of the Holy Spirit is so strong laughter spontaneously erupts. It should never be the focus or point of a meeting but OTOH, I've never heard it claimed it ever was.

                      Obsidian: MaxVel just claimed when he translates from Thai to English or vise versa he interprets at the end and you said that is irrelevant to interpreting tongues because in real life interpreters don't wait until the end. Do you see anything wrong with that?
                      Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

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                      • #41
                        He didn't say he interprets. He just said that he speaks two languages. Everyone knows that is not how you accurately interpret something.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          John MacArthur's book and the Strange Fire Conference were mostly referencing the Word of Faith movement within the Charasmatic movement.

                          If you haven't read the book or watched/listened to the conference, then don't critique it.
                          Last edited by mossrose; 01-17-2015, 08:15 PM.


                          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            I think one of the biggest travesties of the "charismatic movement" is that so many churches seem to have totally abandoned the Holy Spirit, for fear of "disorder" breaking out.

                            I don't think we can life an effective Christian life apart from the guiding/power of the Holy Spirit.

                            I have personally seen some pretty blatant abuses of the Holy Spirit - most notably the "holy laughter" phenomenon. I frequently preach and teach on the Holy Spirit, and the need to do things "decently and in order".
                            Yep. Christians seem to go too far either way. Either they get completely crazy with Holy Spirit stuff, roll around on the floor, everyone speaking in tongues all at once in complete chaos, handling snakes, etc., or they stifle the working the Holy Spirit completely so's that people actually become afraid to even mention it.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                              The next time Barack Obama gives a speech in a foreign country, see if that's how the interpreter does it. Does the interpreter wait until the whole thing is over, and then reconvey the general meaning in his own words in the new tongue?
                              Oh, I'm fairly certain that what the Way taught was not interpretation of tongues.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                                John MacArthur's book and the Strange Fire Conference were mostly referencing the Word of Faith movement within the Charasmatic movement.

                                If you aren't read the book or watched/listened to the conference, then don't critique it.
                                I was using information from excerpts I have read and articles detailing the conference and I heard MacArthur was accusing wide sections of the charismatic movement of heresy, and strange fire being a reference to the supposed false worship practiced by it. If that information is wrong I apologize.
                                Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                                Comment

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