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orthodox Christians only.
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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What Is TWeb's Thoughts on Charismatic Christianity
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostBy the way Max, What's it like living in a nation where there are, for lack of better words, a more primitive interpretation of the Gospel? Do you find that the miraculous if often more present there than in, say New Zealand
Originally posted by Adrift(or was it that you're from Australia, sorry about my naivety on that matter. They seem like the same country from my perspective cept for the Tolkien's work there and Flight of the Conchords). I don't mind so much if folks down under mistake Canada with the USA. Its all basically the same to me.
Originally posted by AdriftFor that matter, what are your thoughts on this Raphael? You live in South Africa, and I imagine you're sort of far away from this debate (course I can't help but think your ghettos are something like the movie District 9. That's obviously probably completely wrong, but eh, what do I know. ). How far away are you from the evangelical charismatic movements like those founded by Reindhard Bonnke. Do those even pop up on your radar at all?...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostYou're a teacher, right? Right there I'm fascinated by the work you do. Can't be easy. I'm sure we've talked about this in private, but do you lead a ministry there, or do you participate in an established church?...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostSpeaking in tongues violates the Lord's Prayer.
Luke 11
1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
Nothing in there about "Blah blah bah lah bada."
Secondly, is "Blah blah bah lah bada." really 'speaking in tongues' as the biblical writers understood it? I'm thinking...'No.' So just making a meaningless 'baby talk' doesn't mean you're actually speaking in tongues.
Thirdly, I think Paul would have a pretty big problem with your argument... ...do you accept Paul's writings as canon?
Originally posted by ObsidianIn the passage below, it seems fairly clear that the speaker understands his own tongue, but that it is the audience who fails to understand. The understanding is "unfruitful" because the audience cannot get it, and thus cannot say "Amen."
1 Corinthians 14
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostThe next time Barack Obama gives a speech in a foreign country, see if that's how the interpreter does it. Does the interpreter wait until the whole thing is over, and then reconvey the general meaning in his own words in the new tongue?...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI think I get that. So essentially what you're saying is that, say, Africa, South America, parts of the Middle East, maybe even more primitive areas of South East Asia are more receptive to the miraculous, as well as the gifts of the spirit, because they're not necessarily bogged down with a sort of materialist worldview we find in industrial Western societies where we seek to find a way to explain away everything in psychological, sociological, or naturalistic means. Is that correct? If so, is there a way, do you think, that one could decipher, say, psychology from, let's say, actual spiritual manifestation (either positive or negative)? Is that also to say that you believe the gifts of the spirit, and/or the miraculous, are completely dead in the Western world?
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Originally posted by MaxVel View PostI work as a teacher, and am a 'lay preacher' in an established Thai church, so I work with local Christians, supporting their ministry. My (Thai) pastor is awesome, it's a real privilege to work alongside him.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by MaxVelSpeaking as someone who operates in two very different languages every single day, sometimes that's the only way you can correctly interpret what's being said.
Firstly, you're making an Argument from Silence
That's one possible interpretation.
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Quick note, I used charismatic movement to refer to the whole wide range from historic Pentecostals like the Assemblies of God, all the way to Catholic outpourings, and Power Evangelism, I use Charismatic Movement to refer specifically to the Second Wave of the Holy Spirit. (Approx 60's and 70's and their results)
Originally posted by Adrift View PostI guess I missed out on that. who is Strange Fire. Does he/she post here?
When speaking in tongues, I never had/have the feeling I was faking it. Occasionally in circumstances of distress, I find myself breaking out in tongues without being totally aware of it. But I still find myself confused about whether or not what I'm doing is legitimate.Silly perhaps, but it weighs on me. My background is in a Jesus Freak cult called the Way Ministry (or the Way International). There were many beneficial aspects to being in that cult. They taught me to take a skeptical view of orthodox denominational doctrine, but it also taught me rudimentary concepts of study. Dr. Paul Wierwille (the head of the Way) taught us to not take his word on "it" (his interpretation of the Bible), but to study it out for ourselves.And there was a popular acronym for speaking in tongues called S.I.T. We were taught to Speak In Tongues often as a personal prayer language. We also did interpretation of tongues. I remember I was taught to do this on request, but never felt comfortable about it. The last time I was asked was when I was with some ex-Way believers in Rhode Island....They all spoke in tongues, and I was asked to interpret. I believe this was in 95 or so, attempting to find my way. My mother, who was in Ohio at the time, but was a well known twig fellowship leader (a type of home pastor, if you will). So I was expected to be strong in this practice. I shyly asked to be passed over. We were in a field. It was autumn. A beautiful day. I was embarrassed, but no one cared that I didn't do it. They loved me. They were moving out of the cultic influence of the Way, but it was still strong in us. Left me confused, but okay. Weird that I remember it to this day.
I know very little about Wesley to my chagrin. Seems like someone I should know more about. I'm learning lots from this. Thanks for that!I'd say Yes to all of the above too. Anglicans seem pretty much a free for all. I've been to Baptist churches where they were very charismatic, so I know that's a thing there.Lutherans I sincerely don't know about. They seem so serious.
Not really. You probably know more about those movement than I do. I have fringe knowledge about them. So anything you or others want to add, just consider me an observer.
Word of Faith takes seriously the idea that there is a supernatural power in words, and there is a supernatural power in belief. I think there is a measure of truth to this, however; it is magic. Magic is not a Christian practice, and many seem to confuse Biblical principles of prayer with the ability to get what you want by your own power, and by your own authority. A related teaching is that Christians are not quite human in the usual sense anymore, and through their adoption by God Christians are made into gods. Which seems to be mostly bad word choice. I do not think that it is necessarily heresy, but it is dangerous.
Prosperity Gospel theology places an undue emphasis on comfort and happiness. It ties a direct connection between piety and rewards. If you love God and give large offerings then you will be rewarded with even more money than you gave. It is vicious because preachers take time out of what should be sermons to promulgate their ideas on money that have driven many to financial ruin.
Kingdom Now is a branch of Dominion teachings that hold to the doctrine that Satan took control of this world and that if they obey God he will give them control over (for example) the Kingdom of Science and once they have control it will be time to use their power to enforce Christian morality. It is connected to the Latter Rain movement (based off a goofy reading of Acts 2) and the New Apostolic Reformation (which claims the offices of apostle and prophet were restored). It's connections are far sketchier than it as an independent teaching is.
Fascinating stuff. What do you think about early proponents of the charismatic movement like Smith Wigglesworth?
I'm glad to hear someone is happy discussing this topic. I like discussing this topic as well. I don't know anything about fire tunnels or portals from heaven. Do tell!
I really don't know much about portals from heaven, I have a friend who's charismatic and he was at Pensacola within the past decade and apparently it was a practice he disagreed with. I was kinda hoping other people knew about it here.
Holy Laughter: A phenomena wherein the presence of the Holy Spirit is so strong laughter spontaneously erupts. It should never be the focus or point of a meeting but OTOH, I've never heard it claimed it ever was.
Obsidian: MaxVel just claimed when he translates from Thai to English or vise versa he interprets at the end and you said that is irrelevant to interpreting tongues because in real life interpreters don't wait until the end. Do you see anything wrong with that?Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5
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John MacArthur's book and the Strange Fire Conference were mostly referencing the Word of Faith movement within the Charasmatic movement.
If you haven't read the book or watched/listened to the conference, then don't critique it.Last edited by mossrose; 01-17-2015, 08:15 PM.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI think one of the biggest travesties of the "charismatic movement" is that so many churches seem to have totally abandoned the Holy Spirit, for fear of "disorder" breaking out.
I don't think we can life an effective Christian life apart from the guiding/power of the Holy Spirit.
I have personally seen some pretty blatant abuses of the Holy Spirit - most notably the "holy laughter" phenomenon. I frequently preach and teach on the Holy Spirit, and the need to do things "decently and in order".
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostThe next time Barack Obama gives a speech in a foreign country, see if that's how the interpreter does it. Does the interpreter wait until the whole thing is over, and then reconvey the general meaning in his own words in the new tongue?
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostJohn MacArthur's book and the Strange Fire Conference were mostly referencing the Word of Faith movement within the Charasmatic movement.
If you aren't read the book or watched/listened to the conference, then don't critique it.Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5
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