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Harper-Collins prints atlas with no Israel.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    You have a strong point about Google. I've heard similar criticisms lobbed at Apple (which I'm sure can go for any number of companies) for their compromising of their supposedly strong principles to gain entry to the Chinese market.
    Hat tip to Raphael for that one, then.

    To be quite honest, I half suspect that Fox would never have picked the story up if it had been another country. I wonder...how many different atlases are published for African countries?


    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Also, it turns out I had in fact misread a headline a few months ago - what I thought was a company withdrawing a book from publication altogether was really their withdrawing from consideration in Texas (though I find it telling that the companies weren't swooping in to write Texas-friendly textbooks on the fly).
    Meaning they didn't think Texas would buy the book? Do you have a link?
    I'm not here anymore.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
      Meaning they didn't think Texas would buy the book? Do you have a link?
      That's my reading of it, at least: http://lubbockonline.com/filed-onlin...texas-approval
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        Thanks. I did a little more digging myself. Here's a related article regarding the approved books: Texas Approves Disputed History Texts for Schools. What's most confusing is that it appears that Houghton Mifflin Harcourt is still offering the book in question, though.
        I'm not here anymore.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
          In both cases, we're dealing with groups of people that are, quite frankly, delusional.
          Hardly delusional.

          Yes, while one classic function of maps is to depict de facto claims, another is to make de jure claims: that this land ought to belong to my side even though I don't necessarily have de facto control of the land.

          If you think maps have only the one function of depiction of areas under actual control, you're missing the point as maps can and do serve other purposes; the contest isn't over who actually controls the land, but who should control the land, or who it rightfully belongs to: just as leaving out Israel [attempts to] delegitimise Israel's claims to the land and legitimise those of Arabs states, including Israel legitimise Israel's claims and delegitimise Arabic claims.
          Last edited by Paprika; 01-24-2015, 02:11 AM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Paprika View Post
            Hardly delusional.

            Yes, while one classic function of maps is to depict de facto claims, another is to make de jure claims: that this land ought to belong to my side even though I don't necessarily have de facto control of the land.
            People can make such claims all they want. The delusion is in thinking that means something. "If wishes were fishes..." and all that.


            Originally posted by Paprika View Post
            If you think maps have only the one function of depiction of areas under actual control, you're missing the point as maps can and do serve other purposes; the contest isn't over who actually controls the land, but who should control the land, or who it rightfully belongs to: just as leaving out Israel [attempts to] delegitimise Israel's claims to the land and legitimise those of Arabs states, including Israel legitimise Israel's claims and delegitimise Arabic claims.
            But, again, who are they convincing? Themselves? I don't deny the [attempts to]. I deny that it succeeds.
            I'm not here anymore.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
              People can make such claims all they want. The delusion is in thinking that means something. "If wishes were fishes..." and all that.

              But, again, who are they convincing? Themselves? I don't deny the [attempts to]. I deny that it succeeds.
              There are a few different claims:

              1) Those people who do actions like taking Israel off maps are delusional because it denies reality
              2) Such claims mean nothing
              3) There is a method to their madness but they don't succeed in whatever their objectives may be

              I have already addressed one, and your own claim 3) undermines 1); that they do not align to your own narrow view of what purposes maps do or should serve doesn't mean that they are not following a rational purpose of their own. As to 2), China's claims over Taiwan mean nothing? Or the disputing claims by Japan and China mean nothing?

              Honestly, you westerners. So sophisticated in some ways, so naive in others.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                There are a few different claims:

                1) Those people who do actions like taking Israel off maps are delusional because it denies reality
                2) Such claims mean nothing
                3) There is a method to their madness but they don't succeed in whatever their objectives may be

                I have already addressed one, and your own claim 3) undermines 1); that they do not align to your own narrow view of what purposes maps do or should serve doesn't mean that they are not following a rational purpose of their own. As to 2), China's claims over Taiwan mean nothing? Or the disputing claims by Japan and China mean nothing?

                Honestly, you westerners. So sophisticated in some ways, so naive in others.
                You've got this wrong a bit. Claim #3 is in two parts. The first (before the but) is the claims of other. The second part is my response to that claim. It's not accurate to represent the entire statement as my claim. More importantly my response in the second part of Claim #3 is mostly in regards to whether or not HC's actions are really an issue. Even if I granted the first part of #3, the outcome is insignificant.


                Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                As to 2), China's claims over Taiwan mean nothing? Or the disputing claims by Japan and China mean nothing?
                By themselves, no. Consider Ukraine's claims regarding Crimea. Ukraine can say whatever it wants, but Russia is the one occupying that territory. Claims over Taiwan are no different. China doesn't occupy that territory whatever it wishes to say. In fact, every one of those disputes on the site Raphael linked could be considered in the same way. Sure, two countries disagree, and they may even come to blows over it. In reality, the people that 'own' those territories are the ones occupying it. Anything short of that is bluster. The smart plan is to do what Russia did: shut up about it and strike when the iron's hot. People can protest all they want, but no one's really going to oust Russia from Crimea at this point. They're there in force, and the U.S., et. al., have too many other things they want Russia's assistance with to really cause a scene.
                I'm not here anymore.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                  You've got this wrong a bit. Claim #3 is in two parts. The first (before the but) is the claims of other. The second part is my response to that claim. It's not accurate to represent the entire statement as my claim.
                  All right. But it doesn't change much: the point was that those who write Israel out of maps are not delusional by not recognising de facto borders because they have other (rational) reasons for doing so. Given that you recognise that they can be doing so to make claims on the disputed land, I think we have reached agreement that they aren't being delusional in this manner.

                  By themselves, no. Consider Ukraine's claims regarding Crimea. Ukraine can say whatever it wants, but Russia is the one occupying that territory. Claims over Taiwan are no different. China doesn't occupy that territory whatever it wishes to say. In fact, every one of those disputes on the site Raphael linked could be considered in the same way. Sure, two countries disagree, and they may even come to blows over it. In reality, the people that 'own' those territories are the ones occupying it. Anything short of that is bluster.
                  Not at all. The ICJ can and does abjudicate some territorial claims, for example - if a country does not maintain a claim over disputed territory it is relinquishing any possible ownership.

                  The same holds for situations not involving an external abjudicator: if Ukraine were to stop claiming Crimea, it would be in effect relinquishing the land in the eyes of the nations. Another example: how did the Jews regain their nation? One crucial step was to make a claim for it and convince other nations to support them in their claim.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                    Given the fact that I've been traveling for the past few days, my response to this thread has been delayed.




                    I found this bit about Western business to be pretty amusing; it's not as if Western business has any claim to moral high ground. We're the capitalists, remember? The mantra is to find a market and corner it, and where there's not a market to create one. As it stands, I continue to see this as a double standard. I'd be willing to bet that no one here knows what else HarperCollins has published, let alone taken a look at the possible long term repercussions (political or otherwise) of these publishings.

                    ...
                    What 'moral high ground'? It's a bad BUSINESS decision. Hint: don't do things that might tick off the folks back home who are your primary customer base.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      What 'moral high ground'? It's a bad BUSINESS decision. Hint: don't do things that might tick off the folks back home who are your primary customer base.
                      But as has been demonstrated, Google does similar things, and it hasn't seemed to hurt their bottom line one bit. I have doubts that much of an anti-Harper Collins brigade could get rolling. School boards are going to look for the best value materials they can.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                        But as has been demonstrated, Google does similar things, and it hasn't seemed to hurt their bottom line one bit. I have doubts that much of an anti-Harper Collins brigade could get rolling. School boards are going to look for the best value materials they can.
                        Google doesn't use it in their home promotions, do they? Just because you don't see mass protests does not mean they never see damage to their bottom line. I can think of a couple times when Google / China hit the news and Google couldn't get off the front page fast enough.
                        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                        My Personal Blog

                        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                        Quill Sword

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                          Google doesn't use it in their home promotions, do they? Just because you don't see mass protests does not mean they never see damage to their bottom line. I can think of a couple times when Google / China hit the news and Google couldn't get off the front page fast enough.
                          One would have to quantify revenue lost through bad press subtracted from revenue gained by the business decision. Since only the companies themselves have the ability to even roughly estimate this and since the business practice of facilitating customers' illiberal requests continues, the reasonable guess is that companies like Harper-Collins, Google, Apple, and others make more money doing this kind of thing than they would if they abstained from it.

                          —Sam
                          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

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                          • #58
                            As long as they aren't caught - then they print retractions and try desperately to get off the front page indicating that it does do harm when widely known.
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                              As long as they aren't caught - then they print retractions and try desperately to get off the front page indicating that it does do harm when widely known.
                              But they do get caught — routinely — and the bad press doesn't seem to affect the future business decisions of the companies, at least not in a robust way. This isn't the first time I've read of a publisher leaving Israel off the map and I'm sure it won't be anything like the last. Nor do I expect Google to stand up to China over its censorship laws, even though it's gotten bad press for kow-towing in the past.

                              Someone could legitimately make an ethical argument against such practices but the idea that companies should refrain from doing this stuff for business reasons isn't strong. In that sense, it's very similar to worker exploitation in developing countries. How many people even remember which US apparel companies were using labor from the Savar facility in Bangladesh when it collapsed?

                              —Sam
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                As long as they aren't caught - then they print retractions and try desperately to get off the front page indicating that it does do harm when widely known.
                                I'd bet most companies of a sufficient size (and HC certainly qualifies) have batteries of employees just waiting to justify their paychecks. The cost of such retractions would already be figured into corporate overhead. Tracking these days might be enhanced enough that a company can know roughly how many clients they've gained/lost from a particular decision (I heard once that Charmin knows when its commercials air because it can see the minor spike in sales, but that's unverified). The name of the game seems to be keeping out of the spotlight, though, particularly given how such companies like HC and Google are threaded throughout pretty much everything we encounter.

                                That said, the only people I've heard having any sort of problem with HC's behavior has been on this thread. Everyone else I've talked to seems to shrug their shoulders and not see what the problem is.
                                I'm not here anymore.

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