Originally posted by Darfius
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Eschatology 201 Guidelines
This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.
However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.
End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.
Millennialism- post-, pre- a-
Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.
From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.
OK folks, let's roll!
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
Why Study Eschatology?
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by seanD View PostAside from the fact that this is before the fall (you know before the curse of thorns and thistles and the sweat of your brow and all that), I wonder how that works alongside "I've called you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."
Buzzword, what say you?"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
Comment
-
Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostA very similar command is given in Genesis 9:1-3, clearly after the fall, so it's not as if the principles were completely made null and void after the fall. Also, it would take another thread to get too far into it, but I don't see a calling out of the world so much as a call to abandon society but rather not to root oneself in it. One can still work to improve a place that is not their home.
Comment
-
Originally posted by seanD View PostI don't see why it's irrelevant to this thread since the OP brought it up as consequence of "expending" effort (whatever that means he hasn't defined yet) on the eschatological subject. And no one said anything about "abandon society," that's just you trying to create a strawman. Now if he meant things like apologetics, spreading the gospel and winning converts as "improving society" in a spiritual sense I'd agree, but this is not what he said. He was specific with what he meant by "improving conditions" in the here and now (i.e. nuclear power, preventing war, ecological conservation, etc.), things that I see as mainly materialistic, political and geopolitical that have nothing spiritual whatsoever to do with the Christian faith and what we as Christians were commanded to do."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
Comment
-
Originally posted by seanD View PostPaul didn't warn the Thessalonians not to be preoccupied with signs. The Thessalonians were concerned that Jesus had already come, and so Paul clarified the signs that would lead up to that and actually gave them specific signs to look for prior to that coming day.
People in Thessalonica had become convinced that Christ would return TOMORROW, and were quitting their jobs and sitting around like so many apocalypse cults waiting for Judgment Day.
Paul's admonishment that if a man will not work, he should not eat was directed at these people.
Now that I corrected your error, what exactly would you define as "expend the effort."
Also, I take issue with "improving the planet." I don't really see any correlation there with just eschatology, I see a conflict with Christian theology in general. Were we ever really instructed as Christians to improve the planet?
This planet is the one talent with which we have been entrusted, the one field in which we have been placed and told to sow and reap.
If we bury the talent (or throw it away) or burn the field, how can we expect the Master to repay us when He returns?
A ludicrous focus on eschatology has led far too many church leaders and laypeople to take the man-made philosophy of "this world is not my home" and increase its ridiculousness to the dangerous level of "Who cares about the planet? We're getting a new one anyway."
Originally posted by seanD View PostAside from the fact that this is before the fall (you know before the curse of thorns and thistles and the sweat of your brow and all that), I wonder how that works alongside "I've called you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."
Buzzword, what say you?
Originally posted by seanD View PostFor some reason, there is this false dichotomy being argued: you're either discussing eschatology and not being faithful to other things, or being faithful to other things and not discussing eschatology. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
I explained in the OP why I have left the study of eschatology, and I asked what benefit those who continue to study it derive from it.
Which is a question you still have yet to answer.“In many ways the evidence of our faith is found in our ability to control our tongue (or our keyboard)."
-Adam Hamilton, Seeing Gray in a World of Black and White
Comment
-
Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post"Abandoning society" isn't a strawman. It's been a serious tactic tried by many Christians throughout church history, whether with the desert hermits in the first few centuries of Christianity or with various groups today. (It's also something I once looked into doing myself, prompting a study of 1 John 2:15.) It is also the very converse of what I've called for. As such, I disagree that there isn't inherent value to the work we do here. When Paul called for people to work, he affirmed that there was value in the word people did with their hands (Ephesians 4:28). I don't disagree that we can overvalue physical things... but I don't think we can set a firm dichotomy when we look at how Jesus called for physical needs to be provided for his people in Matthew 25.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Buzzword View PostExcept that this is incorrect.
People in Thessalonica had become convinced that Christ would return TOMORROW, and were quitting their jobs and sitting around like so many apocalypse cults waiting for Judgment Day.
Comment
-
Originally posted by seanD View PostAside from the fact that this is before the fall (you know before the curse of thorns and thistles and the sweat of your brow and all that), I wonder how that works alongside "I've called you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."
Buzzword, what say you?
I take Genesis "world" as meaning the physical environment we live in.
I take "I've called you out of the world, therefore the world hates you." (John 15:19) as being the society you live in. It might get closer to what Jesus meant to translate as "I've called you out of society, therefore society hates you."
This is a case where having a good reference book to the original language and meanings of those words can help understand what God is trying to say."For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
Comment
-
Originally posted by seanD View PostThat isn't what they believed. Read the passage carefully.
Or are you for some reason waiting to address the rest of my post?“In many ways the evidence of our faith is found in our ability to control our tongue (or our keyboard)."
-Adam Hamilton, Seeing Gray in a World of Black and White
Comment
-
Originally posted by Buzzword View PostSo you stopped reading right there?
Or are you for some reason waiting to address the rest of my post?
Comment
-
Originally posted by Buzzword View PostI'm not arguing for a false dichotomy.
I explained in the OP why I have left the study of eschatology, and I asked what benefit those who continue to study it derive from it.
Which is a question you still have yet to answer.
Comment
-
I don't want to reveal too much now without any public announcements having been made but I am actually affiliated with a group that is in the process of trying to launch a theological journal devoted to eschatology as a whole. Clearly anything having to do with theology should not be off limits as a topic and I really do hope this project gets rolled out. The thing is, the topic of eschatology is so much more than "when is the end/what is the millennium/etc." N.T. Wright's work on the topic and his connection of it to other areas of Christian doctrine are one popular example."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
Comment
-
Originally posted by seanD View PostOkay, I read your post instead of scanning it quickly and see that this was not part of the original post you broke up, so I'll respond. There are quite a few reasons I believe eschatological discussions are necessary. One reason is so that Christians prepare for terrible things to come. I often use an analogy of getting punched in the stomach. It's better to know you're going to get punched so you can at the very least mentally brace yourself for the blow than getting unexpectedly punched out of nowhere. The main reason though is because we're obeying the command of the Lord to watch the signs. Obviously, there was a reason Jesus gave us signs, otherwise he would have just told his disciples that signs were not necessary and that they should be faithful and prepared at all times and that watching for signs made them expend efforts away from other things that are more positive. The fact he gave us signs and told us to watch these signs is indicative that the signs are important and necessary. If for nothing else, just obedience to the Lord's command to me is the most important reason to discuss the issue.If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
Comment
-
Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostWhat about the other veiws that have the "gut punch" happen in the past?
Comment
Comment