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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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Why Study Eschatology?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by seanD View Post
    Okay, I read your post instead of scanning it quickly and see that this was not part of the original post you broke up, so I'll respond. There are quite a few reasons I believe eschatological discussions are necessary. One reason is so that Christians prepare for terrible things to come. I often use an analogy of getting punched in the stomach. It's better to know you're going to get punched so you can at the very least mentally brace yourself for the blow than getting unexpectedly punched out of nowhere. The main reason though is because we're obeying the command of the Lord to watch the signs. Obviously, there was a reason Jesus gave us signs, otherwise he would have just told his disciples that signs were not necessary and that they should be faithful and prepared at all times and that watching for signs made them expend efforts away from other things that are more positive. The fact he gave us signs and told us to watch these signs is indicative that the signs are important and necessary. If for nothing else, just obedience to the Lord's command to me is the most important reason to discuss the issue.
    How exactly do you define "prepare for terrible things to come"?
    Become a Prepper?

    We already have far too many examples of books written by people who were "watching for signs," and inevitably assigned eschatological meaning to events in their lives incorrectly as a result.

    When all you have is a hammer, the world looks like a nail.
    When your theology centers around "watching for signs," you'll see them everywhere, and statistically speaking will be wrong 100% of the time.

    This is especially true of far too many Christian fundamentalists who assign the title of "Antichrist" (always capitalized) to any and all public figures with whom they disagree, from Frank Sinatra to Bill Gaither to Pope Francis.

    Of what value is this sign-watching to your relationships with God and other people?
    How is it edifying to keep your eyes on the spiritual horizon instead of where you are?
    “In many ways the evidence of our faith is found in our ability to control our tongue (or our keyboard)."
    -Adam Hamilton, Seeing Gray in a World of Black and White

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Buzzword View Post
      How exactly do you define "prepare for terrible things to come"?
      Become a Prepper?

      We already have far too many examples of books written by people who were "watching for signs," and inevitably assigned eschatological meaning to events in their lives incorrectly as a result.

      When all you have is a hammer, the world looks like a nail.
      When your theology centers around "watching for signs," you'll see them everywhere, and statistically speaking will be wrong 100% of the time.

      This is especially true of far too many Christian fundamentalists who assign the title of "Antichrist" (always capitalized) to any and all public figures with whom they disagree, from Frank Sinatra to Bill Gaither to Pope Francis.

      Of what value is this sign-watching to your relationships with God and other people?
      How is it edifying to keep your eyes on the spiritual horizon instead of where you are?
      I don't believe physical prepping is necessary, though I don't fault people that do that. It's more of a psychological (and ultimately spiritual) issue to me than a physical one. People tend to "snap" much easier during terrible times they aren't expecting because they can't cope than those that do expect it and at least mentally prepare. And I agree concerning the problem of Christians assigning everything and everyone to a label of antichrist or those that disobey the Lord and assign a specific date of the parousia or just those that believe they're in the end times and turn out to be wrong. However, I don't find any fault with the latter because being wrong is part of being human and because they were just obeying the Lord's command to watch the signs. As far as this being a problem, see my response in post#30 where I addressed it in more detail. Though I have an interest in eschatology, I certainly don't make it a priority in my life. I spend about 30% of my life posting on TWeb and probably spend about 50% of that time discussing eschatology. My main interest is apologetics. I wrote dozens of articles on apologetics and the history of Christianity, citing numerous sources, which is an accumulation of the research I've done over the years. I personally take offense to the stale argument that we're so consumed with eschatology that we're being unfaithful in our Christian walk and it's getting really old. What have YOU done in your Christian walk other than criticize others about what they do? How have YOU spent your time in your Christian walk advancing the gospel to others?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        I personally take offense to the stale argument that we're so consumed with eschatology that we're being unfaithful in our Christian walk and it's getting really old.
        Personal offense was not intended, but the argument isn't anywhere near stale.
        It continues to be prioritized in churches across the United States, and in the media those churches produce.
        To say nothing of online message boards.

        What have YOU done in your Christian walk other than criticize others about what they do? How have YOU spent your time in your Christian walk advancing the gospel to others?
        I have left the ivory tower in which I was raised to live among and connect with those whom the church has failed, working to demonstrate Christ's love through that connection rather than by throwing tracts or Bible verses or dogma in their faces.
        I have kept my focus on the here and now, and sought to improve conditions on THIS planet and in THIS society, rather than writing the whole thing off as a bad idea and huddling in my bunker waiting for God to blow it away.

        I have worked to grow away from the selfish and the individual and into the selfless and the community.
        I have constantly endeavored to throw off the beliefs which have no value to that growing away or which hinder it.

        All the while seeing those who according to their t-shirts I should be addressing as my brethren continue to look down upon the world, or huddle in their bunkers, or wallow in their selfish and/or useless and damaging dogmas and doctrines.


        To return to the original point of this thread, has anyone ever come away from an eschatological discussion with new insight into how to better follow or emulate Christ?
        Or how to better relate to one another and build relationships?

        Those two activities should be our priority as Christians, in my opinion, and we must let nothing else get in the way.
        “In many ways the evidence of our faith is found in our ability to control our tongue (or our keyboard)."
        -Adam Hamilton, Seeing Gray in a World of Black and White

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Buzzword View Post
          Personal offense was not intended, but the argument isn't anywhere near stale.
          It continues to be prioritized in churches across the United States, and in the media those churches produce.
          To say nothing of online message boards.



          I have left the ivory tower in which I was raised to live among and connect with those whom the church has failed, working to demonstrate Christ's love through that connection rather than by throwing tracts or Bible verses or dogma in their faces.
          I have kept my focus on the here and now, and sought to improve conditions on THIS planet and in THIS society, rather than writing the whole thing off as a bad idea and huddling in my bunker waiting for God to blow it away.

          I have worked to grow away from the selfish and the individual and into the selfless and the community.
          I have constantly endeavored to throw off the beliefs which have no value to that growing away or which hinder it.

          All the while seeing those who according to their t-shirts I should be addressing as my brethren continue to look down upon the world, or huddle in their bunkers, or wallow in their selfish and/or useless and damaging dogmas and doctrines.


          To return to the original point of this thread, has anyone ever come away from an eschatological discussion with new insight into how to better follow or emulate Christ?
          Or how to better relate to one another and build relationships?

          Those two activities should be our priority as Christians, in my opinion, and we must let nothing else get in the way.
          I doubt anyone here discussing eschatology is hiding in a bunker, so that's just you creating a strawman. If you know people huddling in bunkers then why not lecture them directly if you feel that it's necessary to save them? I personally don't know anyone doing that. We could also argue about many subjects discussed here at TWeb and whether or not they offer "new insight into how to better follow or emulate Christ"? Does discussing evolution offer this? Does discussing politics offer this? Does expressing how good and tasty bacon is offer this? There are many subjects here at TWeb that probably are questionable as to how they better our overall theology and walk with Christ, but that's what makes a forum a forum -- the diversity of subjects. Personally, yes, I have learned new insight discussing eschatology and obeying the Lord's command to do so, just like I have discussing apologetics but that's because these subjects interest me. Again, what have YOU specifically done in your life to edify others and to keep their eyes on the spiritual horizon? I ask because you're so quick to pass judgement on others without knowing anything about them and what they do away from TWeb. I told you some of what I do, now let's hear what you do.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by seanD View Post
            I doubt anyone here discussing eschatology is hiding in a bunker, so that's just you creating a strawman.
            I have known a lot of people who get totally into the eschatology thing, complete with wall charts, diagrams, estimations of weeks of Daniel, etc.... they tend to spend FAR more time on that than they do "being doers of the Word, and not hearers only".
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              I have known a lot of people who get totally into the eschatology thing, complete with wall charts, diagrams, estimations of weeks of Daniel, etc.... they tend to spend FAR more time on that than they do "being doers of the Word, and not hearers only".
              Then maybe buzzword ought to have a talk with them to set them straight.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                Then maybe buzzword ought to have a talk with them to set them straight.
                I think you might consider dismounting the high horse and read what he's actually saying.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  I think you might consider dismounting the high horse and read what he's actually saying.
                  I have read what he's said.

                  So far he's argued that discussing eschatology offers no one any new insight. I disagree. I've learned much new insight discussing a subject that we were commanded by Christ to acknowledge.

                  He's argued that we need to focus our faith towards bettering the world, such as ecological conservation, nuclear disarmament, stopping and avoiding war, bringing peace. I disagree because I don't believe these are the types of materialistic problems we were commanded to focus on or that are based in scripture.

                  He also castigated Christians that offer "tracts or Bible verses or dogma in their faces." It's not my particular method of reaching people for Christ, but I certainly wouldn't criticize those for doing it because at least they're doing something.

                  To be honest, he sounds like one of those liberal reformist Christians that are ganged up on by you and others in the civics section. I bet you wouldn't be as emphatic to his views if you and him had a discussion in that section about politics

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by seanD View Post
                    I bet you wouldn't be as emphatic to his views if you and him had a discussion in that section about politics
                    Perhaps that's what's wrong, Sean -- you're coloring his theological views with your perception of his political views?

                    Perhaps you're not aware that people can have the same theological views on particular theological topics, and vastly different views on various political topics?
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Perhaps that's what's wrong, Sean -- you're coloring his theological views with your perception of his political views?

                      Perhaps you're not aware that people can have the same theological views on particular theological topics, and vastly different views on various political topics?
                      Probably because he colored his own theological views with his political views so that's how I was addressing it from the start. I don't consider ecological conservation, nuclear disarmament, stopping and avoiding war, bringing peace theological views, do you?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by seanD View Post
                        Probably because he colored his own theological views with his political views so that's how I was addressing it from the start. I don't consider ecological conservation, nuclear disarmament, stopping and avoiding war, bringing peace theological views, do you?
                        You are free to look at all the baggage, I'd rather address the current comments.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Buzzword View Post
                          To begin, I assure everyone that this is not meant to personally demean anyone who enjoys studying, discussing, or debating eschatology.

                          As a child and young teen, I was obsessed with eschatology, particularly Revelation from (subtitle) "The Throne in Heaven" onward.
                          For years I was a pre-trib/premillenialist focused on interpreting what I considered the "limited vocabulary of the time" to mean technology which had not been invented (ie, horses shooting fire and burning sulfur out of their mouths = tanks) and astronomical phenomena which had not been categorized or identified (ie, burning mountain = asteroid) at the time of writing.

                          Nowadays.....I don't really see the value.
                          Somewhere along the way, probably during my college theology classes, I realized my previous obsession doesn't matter in my day-to-day life, and arguing about it with people doesn't resolve any of my or my wife's or my friends' daily struggles.

                          So now I tend to chuckle or scoff when people sigh about bad things happening and claim "It's a good thing Jesus is coming back soon," or try to fit current events into their own or somebody else's apocalyptic framework, or try to pin the Antichrist merit badge on this or that public figure whom they dislike.

                          The field of eschatology doesn't seem to encourage anyone to more closely emulate Christ, it doesn't build relationships (I personally had two close friends in college split because one had gone from premillenial to postmillennial), it doesn't resolve spiritual, emotional, or interpersonal struggles, and it really doesn't seem to improve your life.

                          Worse, it has the potential to create a fatalistic attitude toward the here-and-now that gives church people all kinds of excuses to avoid improving conditions on this planet (ecological conservation, nuclear disarmament, stopping and avoiding war, bringing peace and understanding instead of swinging the truncheon, etc.) for their children and descendants, because they become convinced that they will outlive the planet.
                          Even though Paul warned against this very attitude with the Thessalonians.

                          The worst of which that I have witnessed personally is a Baby Boomer pastor describing an atrocity on the other side of the planet and praising God for it, because he honestly believes that any escalation of human atrocity will "force God's hand" and bring about the apocalypse faster.

                          So in the midst of all of this, why expend the effort?
                          What positive return do you receive from reading, discussing, and/or debating this field of theology?
                          Well what you say is true in my experience. True back in the days when I was growing up in the doctrines of Futurism (Premill Dispensationalism that is) It's a very exciting and sensational doctrine that puts prophesy all in our day. But I abandoned this doctrine when I was in my late 20's or early 30's. Over the decades I have replaced all this with a logical and common sense view that is very anticlimactic by comparison.

                          I find that it is very important to know eschatology because it tells us what life is intended to be like while living under the New Covenant. This is a major theme of the book of Revelation. Also Eschatology tells us where God is going in history. What to expect in the future. No it is extremely important that we know eschatology but of course real eschatology not the popular brand that if full of super complicated and miraculous events and total escapism from pain and suffering.
                          Last edited by Cooter; 03-03-2015, 07:55 AM.

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