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Quran: Jesus crucified?

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  • #16
    "Is it that you believe God would not allow a true prophet to be killed by anyone, or is it that God would not allow a true prophet to be killed by Jews, specifically?"---this is an interesting question---I had not thought of it one way or the other, as I felt verse 156 was concerning a specific incident only....But, if we are speaking of generalities, I would say God would allow what he pleases.

    I can agree with your point about verse 156 is for the purpose of "taking the wind out of their sails". But why do you suppose the Quran then goes on to clarify that it was an illusion? My opinion is that such denial would close speculation about Jesus Christ(pbuh) being false Prophet----but I am open to other ideas suggestions.......(by the way, apparently Docetist(?)---(early Christianity) seem to have a somewhat similar idea about crucifixion being an illusion?---do you have any opinion on this?)

    what good is a warning?---I read the Quran, yet I am not familiar with Christian and Jewish traditions. It was not until I happened to chat with a Jewish person who was reading Surah 2 on the net that I began to realize how a Jewish person would understand it . In a brief conversation, the Jewish person confirmed that the claim in the Quran that many things would be familiar to Jews from their tradition was correct---He also confirmed the importance of remembrance in Jewish practice...but said he could not recall any incidents of Prophet killing. ---My speculations of how the Quran is using Jewish tradition is based on this (brief) chat.

    as an example of a Muslim reading----There is a story in Surah 2 about a heifer (the title story) In which the Jewish people are asked to sacrifice a heifer but they are reluctant and delay by making excuses that they do not understand the instructions. In the process---they make it more difficult for themselves. I don't know how a person from a Jewish background would understand this story---but for us Muslims, the lesson is clear---we (Muslims) can make religion/Islam difficult for ourselves by forgetting the ethical/moral/spiritual principles upon which it is based and focusing instead on unnecessary details. (2:67-71)
    Such interpretation does not require any knowledge of Jewish practices.........

    "Yes, first of all I believe Jesus died to save all humanity from Adam's sin, sins of the father. Atheists, everyone. Next, all humanity may be saved from their own sins."---Nice, I like.

    Pentecost---thanks for reply. is rejecting grace = rejecting belief in crucifixion?

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    • #17
      siam: I'm going to do some more research regarding Jewish traditions of killing any true prophets then I'll reply further on all your comments. We may also discuss this, I need to read Barnabas again it's been a few years:

      According to medieval copies (the earliest copies from the 15th century) of the Gospel of Barnabas it was Judas, not Jesus, who was crucified on the cross. -Wiki

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      • #18
        "I would still question your statement that, "From this context, what the Quran is implying is that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was not a false Prophet since God prevented his death at the hands of Jews as he would be expected to do of a true Prophet." Since I am unable to find any Muslim source that says John the Baptist as a true prophet was not killed by the King of Jews Herod."

        I think both cases are different. The Quran does not state any claims of Jews of killing God's messenger in the case of John the Baptist as it does in the case of Jesus Christ. I think the Quranic response (v156) is to a particular claim by some Jewish people that they killed Jesus Christ (pbuh). In the case of King Herod---the killing was in response to a request that had nothing to do with his status as Prophet...?......If so, then Deuteronomy would not apply? On the other hand, Deuteronomy might apply if the killing of Jesus Christ (pbuh) was based on an assumption that his death (by Jews) confirmed he was a false Prophet. If that is the case, then the further clarification in the Quran that it was an illusion is reasonable from a Muslim perspective.......

        (in my opinion) An illusion rather than a more dramatic "saving" of Jesus Christ(pbuh) works because at that point---it does not matter what the Jewish people believe as they have already made their choice. On the other hand---It matters that Muslims understand that Jesus Christ was a true Prophet---and so this (illusion) is mentioned in the Quran.

        (I do want to point out that the Quran itself does not state what the Jewish claim in v 156 is based on--it only repeats a claim of some Jews. I also want to point out that the Quran also states (v157) that any discussion of this issue will be conjecture/speculation)

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        • #19
          I replied and you may have seen it, but deleted it as I want to avoid knee jerk responses. I'm particularly interested in researching if the Muslim idea of an illusion came from Barnabas as some have stated. Thanks for your patience.

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          • #20
            "I want to avoid knee jerk responses."---I did not see your reply, but thankyou for your consideration. I understand crucifixion is important to Christians. If I have been insensitive, I apologise.

            If I recall...there are many positions in Islam regarding this matter.....

            Substitution---The idea that a) Judas, b) Simon...somebody(?) c Unknown X/thief was crucified instead
            illusion---it was an illusion
            Allahialim---God knows best
            swoon theory----It was Jesus Christ who was crucified---but he did not die on the cross---just fainted (a minority opinion from Ahmadiya Muslims..?...)

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            • #21
              continued....

              Substitution (most popular). ---illusion can generally go under substitution as the one I am aware of posits a crucifixion but there are also opinions based on language---it was an illusion/similitude---based on the arabic words Shubbiha lahum. (M.Asad in his tafsir infers this as myth)

              anyway, what is certain is that the Quran itself says only what it says---The Jews did not kill him---- and the rest is speculation.

              I would say Christian speculation on this matter would have influenced how Muslims understood this verse. However, the Christian assumption is based on the understanding that Jesus Christ was/is God/Divine---in that context, Christian (substitution) illusion refers to the human aspect of Jesus Christ being crucified but the Divine escaping it. IMO, this ingeniously solves the problem---"Did God die?"---with substitution, the answer would be no.

              (For God to die could be a problem if God/Divine is understood as eternal---in which case, God cannot "die")


              If this conversation is getting into areas that are too sensitive or disturbing it is OK to stop. I have enjoyed your opinions.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by siam View Post
                If this conversation is getting into areas that are too sensitive or disturbing it is OK to stop. I have enjoyed your opinions.
                No it's all good, I am still getting into Barnabas and looking into what the Talmud says, I'll reply back soon. Thanks!

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  (by the way, apparently Docetist(?)---(early Christianity) seem to have a somewhat similar idea about crucifixion being an illusion?---do you have any opinion on this?)
                  I know this part wasn't addressed to me, but I thought I would mention that it is a belief heavily influenced by gnosticism, a mystical heresy based upon denying the any worth of the physical realm.

                  Originally posted by siam View Post
                  Pentecost---thanks for reply. is rejecting grace = rejecting belief in crucifixion?

                  Not quite, because rejecting grace is sort of the "default" position of mankind. But the means by which one accepts grace is by affirming Jesus is Lord and accepting His gospel. While the cross has not much at all to do with the first, it is extremely relevant to the Gospel.

                  I am unaware of how much you know about Christianity so if I use words in a way unfamiliar to you, please ask me to clarify.
                  Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    IMO, the "corrections" that the Quran is concerned, with regards to Jewish thought, may be the exclusivity of the "chosen people" doctrine. The Quranic perspective is that God's Compassion and Mercy is not confined to a few "chosen people" but extends to all humanity. (---Is this similar to Christianity?)
                    In Christianity there is some dispute on the topic. It is mostly between those that say God wants everyone to be saved but only a few will choose to accept that offer, and those that say that God has predestined a chosen people from the beginning. In both cases not all will ultimately be redeemed. Those who say otherwise are know as Universalists and are considered heretics.
                    Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by siam View Post
                      continued....

                      Substitution (most popular). ---illusion can generally go under substitution as the one I am aware of posits a crucifixion but there are also opinions based on language---it was an illusion/similitude---based on the arabic words Shubbiha lahum. (M.Asad in his tafsir infers this as myth)

                      anyway, what is certain is that the Quran itself says only what it says---The Jews did not kill him---- and the rest is speculation.

                      I would say Christian speculation on this matter would have influenced how Muslims understood this verse. However, the Christian assumption is based on the understanding that Jesus Christ was/is God/Divine---in that context, Christian (substitution) illusion refers to the human aspect of Jesus Christ being crucified but the Divine escaping it. IMO, this ingeniously solves the problem---"Did God die?"---with substitution, the answer would be no.

                      (For God to die could be a problem if God/Divine is understood as eternal---in which case, God cannot "die")


                      If this conversation is getting into areas that are too sensitive or disturbing it is OK to stop. I have enjoyed your opinions.
                      Just for one tidbit...

                      We accept easily enough that humans come from God. How do humans come from God if God never had any human nature? At some point God had human nature enough to create humans, even for a split second. What if we slowed that down for the incarnation, and God had both human and God nature?

                      If you argue that God never had human nature then it may be that you argue humans did not come from God, but from some outside entity. Can we explore that momentarily?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Incarnation---Have not heard this take on it before.
                        Religions have presumptions upon which their doctrines are built. Within the framework of these presumptions the doctrines make sense (usually).

                        1) All creation comes from God. "All creation"= includes animals, plants, planets, stars, humans, and any other intelligent life there may be....etc...etc....
                        2) All creation comes from God and will return to God.---this means all creation is finite.= they have a beginning and an end.
                        3) God is Unique = Not like his creation. God is not finite = has neither beginning nor end.

                        How does God create? (from the Quran) God says "Kun fayakun" (Be, and it is...or.....Exist, and it exists).

                        Incarnation = Divine taking on created form. In some forms of Hinduism, the Divine/God takes on interesting forms such as an elephant head with a human body. It also seems incarnation is not limited to a particular time but a phenomenon that occurs all the time (avatar). That is, some forms of Hinduism posit that we all have the ability to channel the God/Divine within and become god. Is your idea similar?

                        Islam rejects incarnation (Divine taking on (any) created form)

                        Incarnation is not required for God to create.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          Incarnation---Have not heard this take on it before.
                          Religions have presumptions upon which their doctrines are built. Within the framework of these presumptions the doctrines make sense (usually).

                          1) All creation comes from God. "All creation"= includes animals, plants, planets, stars, humans, and any other intelligent life there may be....etc...etc....
                          2) All creation comes from God and will return to God.---this means all creation is finite.= they have a beginning and an end.
                          3) God is Unique = Not like his creation. God is not finite = has neither beginning nor end.
                          I disagree with part of 2, while yes, all Creation has a beginning, human souls are immortal and are made in the image of Our Heavenly Father, that is to say all that humans should be is based directly from God, but sin corrupted mankind so that we have fallen short of our intended purpose; and therefore require redemption.

                          I also disagree with part of 3, while God is unique in many ways, such as Him being the ONLY God, and being the ONLY Crealor, etc. that does not necessitate that He cannot share certain qualities with His Creation. But you are correct He is the ONLY eternal being.

                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          How does God create? (from the Quran) God says "Kun fayakun" (Be, and it is...or.....Exist, and it exists).
                          Sounds accurate to me, but he process may be infinitely more complex than that, but the complexity is meaningless because He is who He is.

                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          Incarnation = Divine taking on created form. In some forms of Hinduism, the Divine/God takes on interesting forms such as an elephant head with a human body. It also seems incarnation is not limited to a particular time but a phenomenon that occurs all the time (avatar). That is, some forms of Hinduism posit that we all have the ability to channel the God/Divine within and become god. Is your idea similar?

                          Islam rejects incarnation (Divine taking on (any) created form)

                          Incarnation is not required for God to create.
                          The Incarnation is one of the most complex mysteries of the Christian faith. You are correct in saying that it is not limited to a particular time, to the point that Him taking human aspects is tantamount to saying that He has always had those aspects (even if they were unknown to His creation at the time.), which means one of two things, either He made Himself to be as His creation before He created it (logically impossible), or that He simply gave some aspects of Himself to humanity, but not all (creating us in His image), and the Incarnation was taking on physical flesh, (and therefore the human experience). The second makes sense because His character never changes (being that He's eternal), but the Incarnation has a start date, and no enddate.

                          There is no issue with the Creator taking on the form of His created, because He is who He is, He may do as He likes.

                          Incarnation is not required for God to create, but IS the means by which He chose to purify His creation that decayed so rapidly. In human terms, we have a corrupted flesh and spirit, to fix that He gives all who call upon Him, HIS most Holy Spirit, and has promised to give those who call upon Him a new body at the final Resurrection, all else will be raised as was promised, but in their corrupt mortal corpses.

                          I know many Orthodox Jews affirm a general ressurection with the coming of the Messiah, do Muslims have a similar belief?
                          Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            @Pentecost

                            Disagreement---Yes, our religions are based on different premises---so the doctrines that follow from these premises will be different.

                            Human souls---Nafs (Arabic=soul, Nefesh=Hebrew). does not die, but experiences a death (of the physical body). The existence of the soul/consciousness ends upon return to God.

                            share similarities with creation---In Islam, God is not anthropomorphic---therefore is genderless (neither male nor female nor both male and female). Perhaps it can be understood as "force". Gendered language is used because of the limitations of language. In this regard some may posit that Nafs(soul, consciousnesses) is genderless---though feminine gender is used in language. Perhaps one can say that there is some similarity in this aspect. In Islam God is understood as having an attribute of good/goodness and all creation is created in goodness (inherently good) and this may be understood as another similarity.....What this means is that within limited human intellect and experience---we (human beings) can find similarities with how we understand God and how we understand creation.
                            (goodness/force of goodness = Ruh (Arabic, Ruach =Hebrew) also understood as "God's breath". All human beings have Ruh and Nafs.)

                            redemption (sacrifice for sin)---Islam does not have original sin

                            Therefore incarnation is not needed for redemption.

                            Resurrection---not sure I understand about resurrection? ---can you explain the concept in more detail?.....as for a general concept of resurrection, Yes there is. The dead body will be resurrected and be a witness at Judgement day when the souls are judged.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              In Christianity there are many indicators that show that one day His people will be made holy and be in perfect accordance with His Spirit but there is no indication our consciousness will ever end, although it will become more perfect.

                              Yes, gender as humans know it is sort of wrong to apply to God, He came in the form of a male, but He is more than that in a way I cannot explain.

                              "Force" though is something I vehemently deny! He is more than just transcendental, He is personal, and interacts with His creation in an extremely intimate way.

                              Yes, everything was made in Goodness, but Christians believe that something can only be Good if there is a chance for evil. Jesus was tempted by evil, but overcame it and proved that He is Good. Adam, was tempted and fell into sin, becoming evil in the process.

                              A sacrifice for sin is necessary even without original sin, because we all sin anyways. And the payment for sin is death. When the Sinless One recieved death without paying sin, He defeated sin and death both for any who are united with Him by the sharing of His resurrection.

                              Speaking of which, in Christianity it is taught that all humans will be brought back to life, but the saints will be given new pure bodies, and the unregenerate will be raised in their decayed skeletons. Then all will be judged, the sheep will be separated from the goats, the saints from the sinners, and the saints will even partake in the judging of angels.

                              The saints in their holy bodies with the Holy Spirit living within them will keep God's law perfectly (it is at this point we are in perfect communion with God).

                              The damned will be thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the second death as punishment.

                              Has anyone ever explained what the "good news" Christians speak of is?
                              Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Though there are differences, it seems to me some of our differences may be more about nuance than substance...!?...

                                Consciousnesses will be more perfect ---- there may be a similar idea in Islam. If we understand that when God "created", this caused a separation from the Divine and therefore a return to God would be a Unity with the Divine then this may perhaps be somewhat similar....?....(though this would still mean an "end" to existence as the very idea/process of "existing" is to become separate from the Divine, a return therefore means no longer to be separate which means to no longer exist)

                                Incarnation---God does not take created form as a planet, human, animal, tree or any other imaginative forms......

                                I agree.....Force=Transcendental and personal. (somewhat like panentheism---though this term/concept comes from western philosophy so cannot apply fully to Islamic philosophical thoughts/concepts)

                                Good/bad and human nature---Our bodies are necessary for the soul/consciousnesses to interact with the world around us (our senses-touch, taste...etc help us do that) The body has desires---these are also necessary for the body to survive (such as hunger, thirst, shelter, companionship,...etc). The level of soul/consciousness that is aware of and interacts with desires is called nafs ammara (somewhat equivalent in Judaism = Yetzer Hara). basically, this can be understood as the animal soul or egoic soul. The higher level is called nafs lawwama (equivalent in Judasim = Yezter Hatov). this is sometimes translated as doubting soul or the soul that is able to move away from egoism.(desires)
                                (the highest from of consciousness (enlightenment) is called nafs mutmainna in Islam and Neshama in Judaism)
                                God intentionally created us this way from the start.
                                limited free-will---The growth/maturity of our souls depend on the choices we make as we interact with life/living in this world. All circumstances, both blessings and trials are a test and contribute to the growth/maturity of our souls. Adam/humanity was created to be representative/manager of all of God's creations on earth---this was destined from the start---that is why he was created from "clay". Yes, Prophet Adam (pbuh) made a mistake (sin)---but he was forgiven for it when he asked forgiveness.....and all humanity will also be forgiven if they ask God, most compassionate, most merciful, for forgiveness.

                                sin/death and sacrifice---I don't understand---how is sacrifice related to sin/death?

                                Judgement---In Islam, there will be 3 groups. Those that go to the highest Paradise (such as Prophets), those that go to Paradise and those that go to hell.

                                I dont' understand about the function/purpose of Holy Spirit---what is it and how does it function as part of the trinity?

                                Good news = follow "the way" of Jesus Christ (pbuh) (John 14:6 ?). But...for us Muslims, we feel we are following "the way" of Jesus Christ when we follow the Quran. The message Jesus Christ (a Jew) brought from God (Tawheed(Unity)=Islam/Shema = Judaism) is the same message of the Quran.

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