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Quran: Jesus crucified?

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  • #31
    Even when man becomes in perfect accord with God the man does not become God. In Christianity there will always be a dichotomy between God and man, "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God." (Ezekiel 36:25-28 ESV) We will be cleansed and made as like sons of the Living God but He will be our God, and we will be His people.

    I think the last thing I need to say about incarnation- God is God, who says He cannot take on flesh? He didn't have to; but chose to. I do not know why, only the symbolism presented in it.

    Panentheism is not quite right in all of its meanings. I think this another place where our two faiths bear a similarity. :)

    Your long paragraph seems mostly right. But people do not know to turn to God. In the OT we are told of many peoples worshiping God, from Adam to Abraham, to the Israelites, to foreign rulers, but that forgiveness comes with the belief in God's ultimate reconciliation with mankind, this transfers in the NT to the source of the reconciliation who is revealed to be Christ. And so it is that one may only be forgiven of their sin by faith in Christ.

    Sacrifice is related to sin in that it is the symbol of repentance, the Israelites were commanded to sacrifice calfs, lambs, and so on to represent their internal repentance and turning toward God, and likewise, Christ is said to have offered Himself like a lamb to symbolize God's offer of redemption. The death itself accomplished more than that, but the above is roughly the meaning behind the sacrifice metaphor. It is taught that it was the ultimate sacrifice though and is effective for all those who allow it to be so.

    The Father begets the Son, the Son is begotten by the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, and was sent by the Son. Our Father in Heaven expresses Himself in the material world through the Son and Spirit, if the Son reveals the essance of God externally to mankind, then the Holy Spirit operates within mankind, calling upon all of is to worship and give respect unto the Living God (excuse me if that title is foreign to you, it is a fairly regular designation for the God of Abraham in the Christian Scriptures) and He lives in all true Christians, He is the seal that says we belong to God. When He dwells within you certain "fruit" reveal Him, love, joy, peace, so on. The Holy Spirit may also fill you which is a pleasurable feeling accompanied by the lesser gift of tongues. The Spirit is also the means by which all Godly prophecy and healings occur.

    The good news isn't a command, like follow this way or those teachings. No one wants to hear something like that. It is LITERALLY good news! God is with us, He has not abandoned His people, He has saved us from sin and death, His reign will begin soon! In the mean time He will heal us physically and spiritually if we have faith in Him. It is makes my heart light just typing those words! :D it reminds me of when among David retrieved the Ark of the Covenant and was so overcome with joy that he danced!

    ---Friend, I literally had to take a break from typing to exalt God for this good news. May God bless you as I await your response.

    Though, question for you, why are prophets different in Islam from other men? Yes, they are used as tools by God but are not all that obey Him His tool?
    Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

    Comment


    • #32
      "...man does not become God"--Agree

      Incarnation---Agree that God does as he wills. However, if God incarnates into created matter/form---then there is no argument with those who worship stone idols for they can say God has incarnated into stone--or those who worship trees or cows or other forms. Both the Torah and the Quran are strict that idols cannot be worshipped. God has no "form". God is uncreated. In order to be consistent, Islam cannot accept incarnation.

      People do not turn to God---Islamic view is opposite. All of creation is inclined towards God. Those creations that have (limited) free-will have the choice to rebel against this inclination and turn away from God. (all of creation is muslim(spiritual state)---as in, "submits to God's will/God's laws")

      Forgiveness---Surah 39 verse 53
      "Say: O my servants who transgress against their souls, despair not of the mercy of God: for God forgives all sins for he is Most forgiving, most merciful."
      ....repentance and reform are all that is required.

      Christianity is very difficult to understand---but thankyou for your explanations.

      Prophet---The word may have a different meaning in our religions---my understanding is that in Christianity it refers to prophesy or foretelling future. In Islamic context, a Prophet is one who brings Guidance/Message from God. All humanity is created equal...none superior/inferior to another. However, some people have been given extra/special responsibility. A Prophet is someone who has been given such extra responsibility (burden, obligation).

      Comment


      • #33
        Of course there is a difference, we don't worship trees and rocks as God because they perform none of the actions of God, and there is therefore no reason to think they are God, but Christ did things impossible without God; that leaves two options, 1. He is God. (Christian belief). 2. He was empowered by God (Muslim belief).

        If He claimed divinity and was empowered by God then He must have been the first because God would not aid a false prophet. There is no reason to think that God couldn't have come as Jesus, and the only reason to doubt Jesus is if you don't think He actually made that claim.

        You say creation is aligned to God and man might rebel rather than the opposite. But I tell you that all men rebel. I know I spurned God in my youth and I have never met anyone who hasn't sinned. White lies are sins, theft of a penny is a sin, lustful thoughts of someone you are not married to is a sin too. I do not believe Jesus sinned because He is God, but He alone is sinless perfection. Indeed though, some do turn toward God, but much like Noah, I would name them the exception, not the rule. (Please note that I'm not saying obeying God should be difficult, I am saying few do.)

        Friend, Christianity is not difficult, you are asking after some if the deeper mysteries of the faith, and so my responses have been more mysterious and difficult. The good news as I've told it to you is what is known as the "Full Gospel" or the "Foursquare Gospel" by its adherents describing four aspects of Jesus. Jesus is Savior, Healer, Baptizer, and Soon-Coming King. Most Christian traditions limit it to Jesus is Savior if you're looking for the most simple statement about our faith.

        In Christianity, what a prophet is varies much. But within my tradition, it is relatively common that a man or woman might receive a message from God and then relay it to those around them, it is not always about the future, but it can be. If it is we say the message was prophesied, and then test it against Scripture as we were instructed by St. Paul. Someone who recieves a message from God are under the obligation to share it with it's intended recipient, for fear of "quenching the Spirit."

        All people have obligations to God, but for those that acknowledge those "callings" as we name it in my tradition, not all are the same, some to missionary work, some to raising a family, some to musical ministry and so on, with all being given the duty of spreading the word of God.

        If the Prophets of Islam are the same as other men, why do you say "Peace be upon him," and would you prefer for me to say that for them too? But perhaps you could turn that question back at me, because earlier I referred to St. Paul, and I myself am a saint. (If you do not know saint more or less refers to a Christian.)
        Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

        Comment


        • #34
          This is what I understand you are saying--
          1) Performance determines if a thing/matter/form is God incarnate or not...and...
          2) Claim of divinity determines if a thing/matter/form is God incarnate or not.

          It is possible that within a Christian context this is an adequate premise---but within an Islamic framework it still poses difficulties.......

          In a non-Christian context, in terms of performance, one could argue that an elephant has better memory, hearing, and strength than humans----therefore, some religious person could claim elephants/or a particular elephant are/is God incarnate. Even if one were to argue that the rule of incarnation is confined only to human form, there are many Buddhist monks who can perform "superhuman" feats---would they be God incarnate? Indian and Greek stories also has many superhumans who claim to be God/Gods. I think the premise of incarnation is problematic. It leads to polytheism.

          Rebel---In the Islamic context there is a difference between one who rebels and one who struggles. To make mistakes is an important part of life---we cannot learn and grow without this. This is struggle and God forgives all who make mistakes, intentionally or accidentally, and ask for forgiveness. However, being a rebel is not just about making mistakes---it is about attitude. To deliberately and knowingly reject God's guidance and the inherent goodness God created humanity because of arrogance/pride and ungratefulness. (Those who turn to God are ones who have humility and gratitude.) Nevertheless, if in humility and gratitude the rebel asks for forgiveness, God forgives.

          Peace be upon him---Is a phrase that denotes respect (alav ha shalom = Judaism). When Muslims greet each other we say Assalam Alaikum (Peace be with you) or the longer version Assalam Alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barkatuhu (May God's peace, mercy, and blessings be with you). The Prophets have a heavy burden and go through much hardship to bring God's message/guidance, therefore it is appropriate that we honor them by remembering them and following their message/guidance. I think it is meaningless to outwardly write "peace be upon them" but not honor/respect them inwardly. Inner intentions are more important.

          (by the way, In the Islamic context, "equality" does not necessarily equal "sameness". All human beings are created equal, a king and a pauper are created equal but they are not the same in terms of power, wealth..etc. Likewise, a Prophet and an average person are created equal, but in terms of wisdom and character, a Prophet is blessed and therefore worth emulating.
          So on what basis are they created equal? Those who have been given more blessings---such as wealth, wisdom, health...etc----have more (God-given)responsibility than those who have been given less....in this way the scales of equality are balanced.)

          Comment


          • #35
            You misunderstand me, performance is how we know if a prophet is of God (other than testing them against the holy Scriptures), God's prophets are often accompanied by signs and wonders, from Moses calling down the plagues, to Elijah calling fire from Heaven, to Jesus healing multitudes. We know of The Lord by what they taught, and we knew to trust what they taught by their demonstrations of God's might in ways not replicable by magicians, foreign priests, or witches. The magicians could turn staves to snakes like Moses, but couldn't match the plagues. The prophets of Baal couldn't set fire to an altar, but Elijah showed our God incinerating the entire altar, wet planks to stone to the sacrificial cow. And whilst some witches provide healings, none can match those performed by Jesus who raised Lazarus from the grave. Our God is matchless. And if a man does workings that are in a like manner, and claims to be sent by God and their message is of the substance of previous prophets, then they are trustworthy and of God. If you deny this then you deny any logical belief in any prophets or their scriptures, whether the Christian Bible, the Muslim Qur'an, or anything else.

            Claiming Godhood does mean that it is true. I could say I am God and we would both know I am lying, so clearly that isn't the point I'm making. But when a prophet of God (who has proved this position via miracles) claims to be of equivalent status as our Father in Heaven? Then their claim must be matched against the Scriptures, and Jesus spoke in accord with the prophets prior to Him. The substance and message of Christ line up with what we knew before He came, and so I trust Him.

            Magic exists, and is forbidden in the Books of Moses.

            Your concept of rebels and strugglers is close enough to mine that I see little reason to nitpick, except that I say we can only ask forgiveness in the name of the forgiver whom is the Christ Jesus.

            I see your meaning, it is an outward display of an inward feeling. While I respect (for example) the three prophets I've spoken of in this post, I see little point in that phrase, if they are in peace, the words will not increase it, and if not then a prayer for their sake is already too late.

            Of you're last paragraph there is a similar concept in Christianity, that we have a duty proportional to our capabilities, but those with greater abilities are not seen as someone to be revered, because they would be incapable without the God who sustains us all.

            Questions?
            Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

            Comment


            • #36
              Good discussion!

              Originally posted by siam View Post
              (by the way, In the Islamic context, "equality" does not necessarily equal "sameness". All human beings are created equal, a king and a pauper are created equal but they are not the same in terms of power, wealth..etc. Likewise, a Prophet and an average person are created equal, but in terms of wisdom and character, a Prophet is blessed and therefore worth emulating. So on what basis are they created equal? Those who have been given more blessings---such as wealth, wisdom, health...etc----have more (God-given)responsibility than those who have been given less....in this way the scales of equality are balanced.)
              This doesn't seem like "equality." This sounds more like "unequal responsiblities in consideration of inequality." Mind you, the Bible says the same: To whom much is given, much is required. However, in Christianity, our responsibilities are not the basis of the favorable judgment we hope to receive from God. Rather, Christ's perfect work is accepted as satisfying God's requirement that his children be perfect. And Christ's crucifixion is counted as the death penalty which our sins earn for us. We may emulate Christ, but that's not the reason God accepts us. He accepts us because He loves Christ, and we are joined spiritually to Christ.

              Comment


              • #37
                @Pentecost
                I am surprised to find the amount of commonality between our religions..........

                Determination of Prophet---In the Islamic context, this is determined not by the degree of supernatural actions/performance but by the message the Prophet brings. That is, ALL Prophets brought the message of Tawheed (Shema=Judaism), (though over time, this message was changed/forgotten). Prophets were sent since the beginning (Prophet Adam) to all peoples in all locations throughout time.
                Why? ---Because God is not a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim---God, most compassionate, most merciful, is the creator of all humanity and his love and care and guidance encompasses all humanity equally.

                I understand some Christians use "rest in Peace" after the name of a deceased person? Do you know if there is a particular meaning or function to this phrase?

                I agree that abilities are blessings from God.
                Respect---Respect for others (civility and manners) is stressed in the Quran. Since all human beings are created equal, a degree of respect is due to all but some human beings are able to accomplish God's will much better than others. Such people deserve emulation and deep respect (reverence) for their efforts. (God's will= intentions and actions for the benefit of all of God's creations). Their efforts show us the human potential to transform our world for the better.

                Comment


                • #38
                  @RBerman

                  Yes, you are correct to note that there seems an inequality.

                  Islamic concept---
                  God most compassionate, most merciful creates all humanity equal (this means, none is inherently superior/inferior to another)
                  God gives some human beings blessings and some others trials for a period of time (some short, some long). Both blessings and trials are a test.
                  The distribution of blessings and trials creates inequality. This is balanced by responsibility/obligation. For ex, God gives someone more intelligence/knowledge, the person has an obligation/responsibility to share this with others (for the benefit of all of God's creations), likewise, if God gives more wealth to someone, there is an obligation to charity....etc.... This is the test.
                  To those who have been given trials, the test is for patience and perseverance. ---they have less (or none) responsibility/obligation.
                  Life has vicissitudes and neither trials nor blessings are a permanent state---they are tests. These tests/circumstances provide us with opportunities for moral/spiritual growth and the occasion to exercise our limited free-will.

                  God most compassionate, most merciful, does not expect perfection. Our mistakes are part of learning and growth and this struggle (striving = jihad) is the hallmark of life on earth. God most compassionate, most merciful forgives our mistakes when we ask for forgiveness.

                  In Islam, an individual has a direct "relationship" with God most compassionate, most merciful---no intermediary is required.

                  (by the way---is your explanation connected to the concept of "original sin" ?)
                  Last edited by siam; 02-14-2014, 10:23 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by siam View Post
                    @Pentecost
                    I am surprised to find the amount of commonality between our religions..........
                    Well friend, there are two reasons, one is that I am avoiding certain words and beliefs that I hold to but are unecessary, the second reason is our common source. From you point of view, I believe Islam teaches that the people of the book have the imperfect word of God, and comes closer than pagans. What you might not know is that many Christian scholars consider Islam to be a mixture of the native pagan practices of Arabia, and of a heretical form of Christianity, which is related to why (for example) the Qur'an teaches against a faulty definition of the Holy Trinity. (Mary has no part in it, she was merely human.)

                    Determination of Prophet---In the Islamic context, this is determined not by the degree of supernatural actions/performance but by the message the Prophet brings. That is, ALL Prophets brought the message of Tawheed (Shema=Judaism), (though over time, this message was changed/forgotten). Prophets were sent since the beginning (Prophet Adam) to all peoples in all locations throughout time.
                    Why? ---Because God is not a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim---God, most compassionate, most merciful, is the creator of all humanity and his love and care and guidance encompasses all humanity equally.
                    But that doesn't make sense in an objective sense, the message doesn't give you reason to believe them unless you already believe the message. It is circular logic.

                    I understand some Christians use "rest in Peace" after the name of a deceased person? Do you know if there is a particular meaning or function to this phrase?
                    You're right, I had forgotten. But it is not a religious reason, merely a cultural one. I know no one who does it however, and I find it meaningless and if taken to extremes theologically unsound. Although, certain sects of Christianity, such as Roman Catholocism pray to the dead to ask them to pray to our Father in Heaven on their behalf. I find it objectionable, but perhaps that is the origin of the phrase, "may he rest in peace."

                    I agree that abilities are blessings from God.
                    Respect---Respect for others (civility and manners) is stressed in the Quran. Since all human beings are created equal, a degree of respect is due to all but some human beings are able to accomplish God's will much better than others. Such people deserve emulation and deep respect (reverence) for their efforts. (God's will= intentions and actions for the benefit of all of God's creations). Their efforts show us the human potential to transform our world for the better.
                    I would sooner thank God for the blessings He does through that person and ask Him do similar through me. Which I have in fact done many times. But this is a very minor point, and you'd find much agreement from many Christians.

                    A final note: You should not be extensively confused if JohnnyP, RBerman, or myself make a statement that conflicts with one another, whilst we are all self described "Christians," or even more specifically "Protestants" we are still of three very different schools of theology. This of course should not be seen as a weakness, the dynamic Pentecostals sometimes need to be restrained by the scholarly Reformed who sometimes need the energizing force of Pentecostalism. (I am unsure what JohnnyP would claim as his tradition. I have seen him make many theologically odd statements, mixing liberal ideas and Jewish legalism.) The body of Christ is multifaceted and beautiful in all of its authentic expressions.
                    Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      @ Pentecost

                      Thankyou for your consideration. Because of it I have enjoyed our conversation.

                      Pagan practices. ---If this is in reference to the Kaaba and the Hajj rituals then you are somewhat correct. The Kaaba was a sacred space of the Meccan polytheists and some of the (Muslim) Hajj rituals were also practiced by the Meccan polytheists. However, there is more to this history. We believe the Kaaba was built by Prophet Abraham and his son Ishmael (pbut) for the worship of The One God. Over time, this (Abrahamic) monotheism became corrupted into the polytheism of the Meccans. The Prophet was sent to restore the Abrahamic monotheism and at the same time, this event also fulfilled God's promise to Prophet Abraham.

                      Christian heresy---From what I understand, there were heresy wars in early Christianity and apparently many Christians fled into and around the Arabian peninsula so this region/area had many Christianities. Some Christianities such as the Coptic Church extended its hand in friendship to the Prophet(pbuh) and others such as the Christian king of Abyssinia (Ethiopia) gave asylum to persecuted Meccan Muslims. (IMO) The Quran addresses some concerns arising from these various Christianities.

                      "...the message doesn't give you reason to believe them unless you already believe the message."---Yes, you are correct....and this was somewhat the point I was trying to make. The integrity and character of a Prophet would already have been known to the people before the message was sent---so, if the people insisted on a miracle/magic/supernatural performance as "proof"---this already betrayed their inclination not to believe. Thus, those inclined towards belief would have looked at the trustworthiness and character of the messenger and the content of the message and used their intelligence and reason to arrive at a conclusion/decision. (The case of Jesus Christ may be somewhat of an exception as he was born special)

                      multifaceted expressions of Christianity are beautiful---I agree. That is, I don't understand the intricacies and technicalities of various Christianities but seeing its history and development, one can appreciate the sometimes sincere, sometimes passionate, search for God that is unveiled.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        Islamic concept---
                        God most compassionate, most merciful creates all humanity equal (this means, none is inherently superior/inferior to another)
                        God gives some human beings blessings and some others trials for a period of time (some short, some long). Both blessings and trials are a test. The distribution of blessings and trials creates inequality. This is balanced by responsibility/obligation. For ex, God gives someone more intelligence/knowledge, the person has an obligation/responsibility to share this with others (for the benefit of all of God's creations), likewise, if God gives more wealth to someone, there is an obligation to charity....etc.... This is the test.
                        To those who have been given trials, the test is for patience and perseverance. ---they have less (or none) responsibility/obligation.
                        Life has vicissitudes and neither trials nor blessings are a permanent state---they are tests. These tests/circumstances provide us with opportunities for moral/spiritual growth and the occasion to exercise our limited free-will.

                        God most compassionate, most merciful, does not expect perfection. Our mistakes are part of learning and growth and this struggle (striving = jihad) is the hallmark of life on earth. God most compassionate, most merciful forgives our mistakes when we ask for forgiveness.In Islam, an individual has a direct "relationship" with God most compassionate, most merciful---no intermediary is required. (by the way---is your explanation connected to the concept of "original sin" ?)
                        One could certainly related discussions of sin to the topic of "original sin," although one not need have any specific view of "original sin" in order to be a Christian; there are numerous variations on the theme which probably aren't worth exploring for our purposes.

                        I am glad that you would affirm that God is compassionate and merciful. It might be interesting to explore what we both mean by such terms, but for the moment I'd rather ask: Do you believe that God loves you? Does the Qur'an use such language?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by siam View Post
                          @ Pentecost

                          Thankyou for your consideration. Because of it I have enjoyed our conversation.
                          Of course. :) it is the same consideration I would extend to anyone when I speak to them of my faith, when I speak to practicing Jews for example I speak of the Law. Because that is what's relevant.

                          Pagan practices. ---If this is in reference to the Kaaba and the Hajj rituals then you are somewhat correct. The Kaaba was a sacred space of the Meccan polytheists and some of the (Muslim) Hajj rituals were also practiced by the Meccan polytheists. However, there is more to this history. We believe the Kaaba was built by Prophet Abraham and his son Ishmael (pbut) for the worship of The One God. Over time, this (Abrahamic) monotheism became corrupted into the polytheism of the Meccans. The Prophet was sent to restore the Abrahamic monotheism and at the same time, this event also fulfilled God's promise to Prophet Abraham.
                          That is what I speak of. Christianity has no tradition that Abraham built a temple, only an altar for the sacrifice of his son, which then burned up along with the sacrificial lamb that saved the son of Abaraham.

                          Christian heresy---From what I understand, there were heresy wars in early Christianity and apparently many Christians fled into and around the Arabian peninsula so this region/area had many Christianities. Some Christianities such as the Coptic Church extended its hand in friendship to the Prophet(pbuh) and others such as the Christian king of Abyssinia (Ethiopia) gave asylum to persecuted Meccan Muslims. (IMO) The Quran addresses some concerns arising from these various Christianities.
                          Heresy wars? No such thing. There were some few that sought to mix Christianity with foreign religions though, Greek philosophy, Roman mystery faiths, eastern dualism, and even Judaizers appear in some form, however they were teachings all floundered, and failed. They wrote their own texts years later and named them after prophets and apostles. The Arabian peninsula has historically been beyond the reach of Christianity so it is not surprising that the dying Gnostic faith should flee there.

                          "...the message doesn't give you reason to believe them unless you already believe the message."---Yes, you are correct....and this was somewhat the point I was trying to make. The integrity and character of a Prophet would already have been known to the people before the message was sent---so, if the people insisted on a miracle/magic/supernatural performance as "proof"---this already betrayed their inclination not to believe. Thus, those inclined towards belief would have looked at the trustworthiness and character of the messenger and the content of the message and used their intelligence and reason to arrive at a conclusion/decision. (The case of Jesus Christ may be somewhat of an exception as he was born special)
                          That is the definition of circular logic. If you are unfamiliar with it is is a logical fallacy, that means that there is absolutely no reason to believe whatever it seems to prove. Christianity is a reasonable faith, I believe the Scriptures because I believe the Prophets because I trust their signs are of God, and I trust that God is not a liar. And the last because there is no proof otherwise and plenty of proof showing He is trustworthy.

                          multifaceted expressions of Christianity are beautiful---I agree. That is, I don't understand the intricacies and technicalities of various Christianities but seeing its history and development, one an appreciate the sometimes sincere, sometimes passionate, search for God that is unveiled.
                          Yes, this is a favored topic of mine. I feel free to look towards both the Reformed and the Catholics and see my brothers. I know there are divides in Islam, Sunni and Shi'ite, Twelvers and Sufi. I do not know what these words mean though. Is there love amongst you? May you fellowship easily?
                          Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            @RBerman
                            Love is a large topic to cover.
                            In my opinion, God's love for all humanity as obvious/self-evident.---The subject that is of more interest, when considering love is, how can humanity love God./reciprocate God's love

                            "Taqwa" is the concept that translates into English as God-awareness or awe of God---and more specifically, the desire to please God (love) and the fear of dissapointing God.
                            A person who has Taqwa is called a mutaqueen. The opening verses of Surah 2 say that the Quran is addressed to the mutaqeen.

                            A mutaqeen will have different degrees of Taqwa (love of God). The highest level of spirituality is called Ihsan and means beautiful actions---love of God (intentions) motivates beautiful actions...this is the highest form of worship. It is understood as worship(in actions/deeds) of God as if you see him, but if not, to know he sees you. The Quran refers to such a person as muhsin.

                            @Pentecost
                            Types of Islam---The general (major) categories are Sunni, Shia and Sufi but perhaps there is another way to categorize. Sunni/Shia split originated in politics rather than doctrine and Sufi are mystics. All 3 have the same doctrinal foundations (all Muslims use the same Quran)
                            One might also classify this way---
                            Sufi mystics (both Sunni and Shia)---inclusive view. Concentrate on spirituality
                            Mainstream (both Sunni and Shia)---middle/midway view. Balance between law and spirituality
                            Purists (both Sunni and Shia)---exclusive view. Concentrate on identity and regulations.

                            Within Islam, category can also be of law. There are 5 major schools of law and a few minor ones (...I think)
                            ("law" for an average Muslim means regulations concerning diet, rituals etc. "Fiqh" is about jurisprudence)
                            1) Hanbali
                            2) Maliki
                            3) Shafi
                            4) Hanafi
                            5) Jafari

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Thank you for sharing that. In response I will try to explain the emphasis the different traditions place.

                              The three primary divisions are between the Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholics and the Protestants.

                              1. Eastern Orthodoxy: Liturgy and mystery.

                              2. Roman Catholicism: Sacrament and tradition.

                              3. Protestantism on the other hand is a catch-all term for the non-Catholic, but still Western churches. Interestingly, the traditions are usually not comprehensive, instead dealing with only particular beliefs as their "distinctives." It is therefore possible to be a Protestant without any allegiance to a particular tradition or a Protestant who identifies with several traditions. I for example strongly identify with Pentecostalism (which teaches certain things about the Holy Spirit), but it would be a non-issue for me if I decided to also identify with the Baptist tradition (which has certain teachings about baptism). (Not sure if you know what baptism is, nor how interested you are in such "in house" discussions.)

                              There is some debate on what Christians must do, and what Christians should do. We essentially never refer to this as a law but I wonder if there may be another similarity here between Christianity and Islam here, if not in specifics or in name, but instead in structure. But then, there are very few Christian theocracies and very little interest in instituting any new ones.
                              Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                @ Pentecost
                                There is also the Oriental Orthodox---right? (Coptic, Ethiopian, Syrian...etc)
                                The Eastern Orthodox, the Oriental Orthodox, and a few other types of Christianities were prevalent around 7th Century Arabia.

                                From what I understand---These Churches had/have different Christologies (?) ......and the books (set) of the Bible may be different?....

                                By the way, where does the Anglican Church fit in?

                                There is a Christianity called Evangelical? Do you have an opinion of Emergent Church (?---not sure if the name is correct) apparently it is part of Evangelical group (?)

                                I am very interested in "in house" stuff---but I don't even understand the basics. My knowledge of Christianity is more or less historical rather than doctrinal and generally related (but not limited) to those areas that intersect with the Quran/Islam.

                                Baptism=cleans sin?

                                Theocracy= Rule by religious leader/s. (I do not favor it) One might say that the period at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) may be a theocracy though not sure it would fit---however, in Islamic history, law and government were separated, with the law (scholars of law-"Ulama") empowered to interpret the Quran for purposes of law/justice/jurisprudence....and acted (or were supposed to act) as a counterbalance force to the powers of the rulers. (The Sufis acted as a counterbalance to the law aspects). (note:--Islamic law (Fiqh) developed over time)

                                In the Islamic context---The relationship between God and the individual is personal. So, an organization or hierarchy should not claim to "speak for God". The Quran---considered a Guidance from God---is read by the individual Muslim. The scholars provide a framework of interpretation called Tafsir (exegesis).

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