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Pop preachers and their heretical beliefs

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  • Originally posted by mossrose View Post
    This is absolutely vile, pure blasphemy on the level of Lucifer himself. How any believer can think Bethel is a legitimate church is beyond me.

    *sigh*

    A'ight, Ima hafta be the turd in the punch bowl.

    In terms of style, I don't at all care for the yelling or strutting or literal as well as metaphorical chest-thumping.

    In terms of content, the only thing that bothers me -- and it does bother me -- is the "I am God Almighty" line that is the focus of the short clip.

    The "Messed Up Church" guys who provided the clip were clearly quite bothered by his encouragement of women preachers. I of course believe such opposition involves mistranslation, misunderstanding, and misapplication of the bits they cited from 1 Tim. 2 and 1 Cor. 14. In the context of the clip, "I am God Almighty" in context immediately followed "I'm not in covenant with a person. I'm not in covenant with a political party. I'm in covenant with God Almighty." The Messed Up Church guys seem to have a problem with those three assertions, since they made a point of superimposing the text onto the video, but those three statements are true. In that context, "I am God Almighty" is a very unfortunate overstatement drawn from the idea of "covenant union."

    The MUC guys conclude with a "really good question": "What kind of a man says, 'I am God Almighty,' even if by accident?"

    I can take a guess wrt the "by accident" part.

    First, probably someone whose Scriptural diet emphasizes this sort of material:

    We are "in" Christ -- Rom 8:1-2; 2 Cor. 3:14; 5:17; etc.

    We are "in" Him -- 1 Cor. 1:5; 2 Cor. 5:21; Col. 2:11; etc.

    We are "with" him -- Rom. 6:4-8

    We are heirs of God, fellow heirs with Christ -- Rom. 8:17

    We are royalty -- Rom. 5:17; 1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6, 5:10

    We are seated with Christ -- Eph. 2:6, 1:20

    We are partakers of the divine nature -- 2 Pet. 1:4

    Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power (Acts 10:38) and we have an anointing of the Holy One (1 John 2:20).

    Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35) and we are born of the Spirit (John 3:5-8).

    Jesus was(is) the beloved Son of God (Matt. 3:17; Mark 9:7; Luke 1:35, 3:22; etc.) and we are children of God (Rom. 8:14; Gal. 3:26; 1 John 3:1-2).

    Jesus called the Father "Abba" (Matt. 14:36) and so do we (Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).

    Jesus was (uniquely) born of God (John 3:16, 18) and we are born of God (John 1:12-13), born from above (John 3:3, 7).

    Jesus calls us His brothers and sisters (Heb. 2:11).

    The Spirit was upon Jesus (Luke 4:18) and provided Him power (4:14). The Spirit and power are upon us (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:8; 2:4-39).


    Second, someone who perceives -- rightly or wrongly -- that such material tends to be neglected in "traditional" churches, and when preaching, emphasizes it all the more in order to compensate.


    Third, someone who gets carried away in the emotion of the moment and goes over the top.
    Last edited by NorrinRadd; 06-15-2021, 12:36 AM.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

    Comment


    • I am really sorry that you feel like to have to defend that kind of behaviour. And I will guarantee that Furtick is not the only one claiming to be God. Creflo Dollar has used the phrase "I am a little God", and many WoF agree with him claim that along with him.

      Bethel is not a Christian church. They are false prophets, and Furtick speaks blasphemy.


      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

      Comment


      • Not a fan of the yelling and chest thumping. It seems the preacher is putting on a show and that shouldn't be done.

        Comment


        • About three months ago a false prophet by the name of Troy Black "prophesied" that a major storm would knock out the transportation system in Anchorage, Alaska. It never happened. Nonetheless, someone out there decided to have a bit of fun with the failed "prophecy."



          Source: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa8...X5scqhN4AaABCQ
          ~ Russell ("MelMak")

          "[Sing] and [make] melody in your heart to the Lord." -- Ephesians 5:19b

          Fight spam!

          Comment




          • Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by The Melody Maker View Post
              About three months ago a false prophet by the name of Troy Black "prophesied" that a major storm would knock out the transportation system in Anchorage, Alaska. It never happened. Nonetheless, someone out there decided to have a bit of fun with the failed "prophecy."



              Source: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa8...X5scqhN4AaABCQ
              huge manatee.jpg

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Humanity.jpg

                fify nc
                Attached Files
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  Humanity.jpg

                  fify nc
                  Let a pro take over

                  hue-manatee.gif

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

                    Let a pro take over

                    hue-manatee.gif
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post



                      My rule will be fair -- but firm.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Are you guys spamming in here?



                        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                        Comment


                        • Who us? Spamming? No - wouldn't dream of it. And Rouge paid me to do it anyway. Only he made a bigger payment to Rogue.

                          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                          I am really sorry that you feel like to have to defend that kind of behaviour. And I will guarantee that Furtick is not the only one claiming to be God. Creflo Dollar has used the phrase "I am a little God", and many WoF agree with him claim that along with him.

                          Bethel is not a Christian church. They are false prophets, and Furtick speaks blasphemy.
                          Athanasius said (and not he alone of the early church fathers) - "Logos became a man so that men could become gods," or words to that effect. No-one complains about those comments.
                          The context provided in the video shows that Furtick is making no claim to be "God almighty." What he said cannot even be attributed to a Freudian slip. A simple dropping of "in" or "with" from what he intended seems the most likely scenario. Yes - he said the words. No - that is not what he claims.
                          Last edited by tabibito; 08-18-2021, 07:31 PM.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            Who us? Spamming? No - wouldn't dream of it. And Rouge paid me to do it anyway. Only he made a bigger payment to Rogue.



                            Athanasius said (and not he alone of the early church fathers) - "Logos became a man so that men could become gods," or words to that effect. No-one complains about those comments.
                            The context provided in the video shows that Furtick is making no claim to be "God almighty." What he said cannot even be attributed to a Freudian slip. A simple dropping of "in" or "with" from what he intended seems the most likely scenario. Yes - he said the words. No - that is not what he claims.
                            As He is, so also are we in this world.
                            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                            Beige Federalist.

                            Nationalist Christian.

                            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                            Justice for Matthew Perna!

                            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                              I am really sorry that you feel like to have to defend that kind of behaviour. And I will guarantee that Furtick is not the only one claiming to be God. Creflo Dollar has used the phrase "I am a little God", and many WoF agree with him claim that along with him.

                              Bethel is not a Christian church. They are false prophets, and Furtick speaks blasphemy.
                              I'm not familiar with Bethel beyond the occasional outraged diatribes I encounter online. I spent some time today looking around for more info. Most of the pages I found made a lot of claims about what Bethel had wrong, but no documentation to show Bethel really taught what they claimed.

                              I've been a fan of Anton Hein's "Apologetics Index" for probably 25 years. The entry on Bill Johnson and Bethel is informative, but deals almost exclusively with bizarre practices, not doctrines. It makes somewhat of a big deal about "apostles" and "prophets," but does not provide any quotes showing what Bethel means by those terms.

                              This mook does a little better by providing a few brief quotes.

                              I believe these are the only actual quotes provided (all by Bill Johnson):

                              "Jesus did everything as a man, laying aside His divinity in order to become a model for us."

                              "…Jesus did everything in His earthly ministry as a man who had set aside all His divine privileges and power in order to model the Christian life for us."

                              "Jesus Christ said of Himself, ‘The Son can do nothing.’ In the Greek language that word nothing has a unique meaning—it means NOTHING, just like it does in English! He had NO supernatural capabilities whatsoever!…He performed miracles, wonders, and signs, as a man in right relationship to God…not as God."

                              "…Jesus had no ability to heal the sick. He couldn’t cast out devils, and He had no ability to raise the dead. He said of Himself in John 5:19, ‘the Son can do nothing of Himself.’ He had set aside His divinity. He did miracles as man in right relationship with God because He was setting forth a model for us, something for us to follow….Jesus so emptied Himself that He was incapable of doing what was required of Him by the Father – without the Father’s help…"


                              "The anointing Jesus received was the equipment necessary, given by the Father to make it possible for Him to live beyond human limitation…"

                              "…Jesus gave Himself to be crucified. He did not raise Himself from the dead…His job was to give His life to die. The Father raised Him by the Spirit…"


                              The author of the page quite reasonably raised John 2:19 and 10:17-18 in response to that last one. He did not address the fact that Johnson himself was citing Scripture -- Rom. 8:11; cf. 1 Pet. 3:18.

                              Regarding the prior quotes, I don't find them substantially different from these...

                              Walter Martin:

                              The New Testament irrefutably teaches that Christ did not exercise at least three prime attributes of deity while on the earth prior to His resurrection. These were omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence. Had He done so while a man, He could not have been perfect humanity. ...

                              The miracles of our Lord offer further proof of His limitations as a man, for He did not hesitate to teach that He personally worked none of them, and that it was the Father who performed the works (John 5:19, 30; John 8:28; 10:37, 38; 10:32; 14:10). ...

                              It can be said on good biblical ground that all of Christ's miracles, powers, and supernatural information were the result of the Father's action through Him, thus safeguarding our Lord's identity as a true man (John 14:10; John 5:30).

                              (Walter Martin, Essential Christianity, a Handbook of Basic Christian Doctrines, quoted by Rob Bowman in The Word-Faith Controversy.)


                              Gerald Hawthorn:

                              [I]t will become clear also that the Spirit so fully motivated Jesus' speech and actions that the miracles he performed and the words he spoke he spoke and performed not by virtue of his own power, the power of his own divine personality, but by virtue of the power of the Holy Spirit at work within him and through him.

                              That Jesus did his mighty works and preached his message with authority because he was enabled to do so by the Holy Spirit is the conclusion to which the Gospel writers came after reflecting on the extraordinary nature of his words and deeds. They expressed this conclusion both explicitly and implicitly.
                              (The Presence and the Power, pp. 145-146)



                              ... and I don't find them at all problematic.

                              Aside from that, he made *assertions* about things Johnson teaches, but did not document them on the page. A few things had off-site links to pages that are not accessible.

                              He made *assertions* about things some guy named "Kris Valloton" allegedly teaches, but did not document them.


                              I've seen evidence Bethel has extravagant and questionable practices. I've seen claims about their doctrine, but not much documentation. I've seen no attempts to deal with the Scriptures they cite, other than citations of rebuttal Scriptures -- which by itself is only evidence that Scripture is inconsistent, not that Bethel is wrong. I've seen lots of huffing and puffing and foot-stomping about them, but no evidence of "heresy."
                              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                              Beige Federalist.

                              Nationalist Christian.

                              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                              Justice for Matthew Perna!

                              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                                I've seen evidence Bethel has extravagant and questionable practices.
                                Is that a typo? or have you actually seen evidence?

                                I've seen claims about their doctrine, but not much documentation. I've seen no attempts to deal with the Scriptures they cite, other than citations of rebuttal Scriptures -- which by itself is only evidence that Scripture is inconsistent, not that Bethel is wrong. I've seen lots of huffing and puffing and foot-stomping about them, but no evidence of "heresy."
                                Accusations? What was Jesus accused of? And does Matt 10:25 not address the issue of accusations against disciples of Christ?

                                On the issue of Christ's identity in particular, the scriptures are not inconsistent - faulty interpretations of scripture make it seem that they are inconsistent.
                                John said the Logos became flesh. Hebrews 2:17 says that it was necessary that he be made like his brothers in all things. Acts 2:22 says Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know. Note the meaning of the very title, "Christ." It means "anointed" - he was termed the Lord's anointed, not the Lord. And then there are analyses by Jurgen Moltmann and Kazoh Kitamori, and comment by Torrance.

                                And my own comments in academic writing:

                                as Thomas Torrance notes,

                                Theologians have been willing to go to great exegetical lengths to reconcile large portions of scripture with their understanding of God’s metaphysical attributes. Hence, any scripture that ascribed change or suffering to God was typically interpreted to depict God as he appears to us, not as he actually is.[1]
                                Late in the second century, Tertullian deems blasphemous the concept of a suffering God, even in the restricted sense of a vicarious suffering: “the Father is as incapable of fellow-suffering as the son even of suffering … as God.”[2]

                                [1] Gregory A Boyd. The Crucifixion of the Warrior God: Interpreting the Old Testament’s Violent Portraits of God in the Light of the Cross Volumes 1&2 (sample). (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2017), KL 679-681
                                [2] Tertullian. “Against Praxeas XXIX” in The Complete Works of Tertullian (33 Books With Active Table of Contents) Kindle Edition. KL 7765-7773, 7790.





                                Mann Park reports that many challenges have arisen against traditional teachings: concepts of God which were developed to draw a contrast to the “finitude of creatures (and) understood in absolutist terms,” [1] with a range of objections including; “this theistic understanding is philosophically derived and does not correspond to the biblical witness to God."[2]

                                [1] self-existent, incorporeal, eternal, immutable, impassible, simple, perfect, omniscient, and omnipotent.
                                [2] Mann Park. Jürgen Moltmann’s Theology of the Trinity and its Significance for Contemporary Social Questions: A Dialogical Approach Dissertation PDF, (Toronto: Toronto School of Theology, 2000), 23




                                That God is capable of suffering is also a matter of record, both in prospect when God says, “they shall look upon me whom they have pierced,”[1] and in actuation, where it is recorded that God secured the church with his own blood:[2] God himself was crucified. Hebrews 13:12 identifies Christ as sanctifying the people by his own blood and suffering. Even if the statements could safely be ignored that Logos emptied himself to assume human schéma, omoiōmati, and morphé[3] to be made lesser than the angels,[4] no different from his brothers,[5] that he was a man who was attested by God in the signs and wonders that God worked through him;[6] the “He” who was obedient unto death, spoken of in Philippians 2:8, the living one identifying himself as the one who was dead and lives forever more,[7] is none other than Logos, God revealed in the flesh.[8] The incarnation and crucifixion, however the practical enactment is perceived, constitute demonstrated radical changes in God: that the scriptures assert God’s passibility is therefore ineluctable.

                                [1] Zechariah 12:10, Isaiah 53:5 – the latter is often disputed, but in light of Zechariah 12:10, not convincingly.
                                [2] Acts 20:28 cf Hebrews 13:12 The Holy Spirit is the subject and therefore, grammatically, the one who shed his blood. “God” is genitive so, technically, “God” isn’t viable as the one who shed his own blood. Either way, Christ is not identified as being solely the subject securing the church with his own blood.
                                [3] Philippians 2:7-8: schéma (form, shape, figure), omoiōmati - dative of omoiōma (likeness, image), and morphé (form, fashion, appearance). No one of these words would alone be decisive – the three in the combination provided by Paul declare Logos to have assumed full humanity, particularly in view of Philippians 2:8B.
                                [4] Hebrews 2:9
                                [5] Hebrews 2:17
                                [6] Acts 2:22
                                [7] Rev 1:18. cf Kitamori. Theology of the Pain of God, 45
                                [8] 1 Tim 3:16. see also Athanasius Orations Against the Arians 1:39, which addresses many of the points in this paragraph.



                                John McGuckin reports that, lacking the “signs and traces of later formulae,” the “earliest level of patristic trinitarianism has often been dismissed as unformed, or pedestrian.” [1] Late in the First Century, he says, Clement advances a concept of an undivided economic and immanent Trinity, in which the identities of Father, Son, and Spirit have defined roles. Early in the second century, Ignatius of Antioch confidently wrote of the church hierarchy as an analogue of the Trinity (Bishops, icons of the Father; priests, Christ-like; deacons, angels) urging his readers “to obey the hierarchy that is the icon of the heavenly harmony of God,” thus demonstrating a hierarchical concept of Trinity. Philip Schaff notes that by the early third century, concepts of the trinity show a divergence from scripture and sub-apostolic era writings
                                [1] John Anthony McGuckin. “The Trinity in the Greek Fathers.” The Cambridge Companion to the Trinity. (New York: Cambridge University Press, 2011), 51-52.


                                Last edited by tabibito; 08-19-2021, 04:12 AM.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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