Miracles

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Nonsensical semantics Boxing. The past is not equally as real as the present or my mom would be alive.

Once again, your misunderstandings do not define the implications of the B-Theory.

Is New York just as real as Tokyo? Then why is Yoichi Masuzoe in Tokyo, but not in New York? The fact that a position is real does not imply that all objects occupy that position.

Not now, but in the past I was lead to believe that they were static.

It seems that your belief was mistaken.

[seer]

Once again, your misunderstandings do not define the implications of the B-Theory.

Is New York just as real as Tokyo? Then why is Yoichi Masuzoe in Tokyo, but not in New York? The fact that a position is real does not imply that all objects occupy that position.

So in what way is the past equal to the present then? How does this "idea" preset itself in the real world?

[Boxing Pythagoras]

So in what way is the past equal to the present then? How does this "idea" preset itself in the real world?

The past is equally real to the present in exactly the same way as New York is equally as real as Tokyo. In both cases, we have sets of points which exist along a dimension of measure.

As to how this presents itself in the real world, the easiest way to see this is in experiments which demonstrate Special and General Relativity. We can measure the difference in the rate at which time elapses at different velocities. We can literally see spacetime bend in the presence of strong gravitational fields. We can quite easily demonstrate that if one observer observes events A and B to be simultaneous, another can view the same A to be temporally prior to B, while a third could view A as being temporally subsequent to B.

[seer]

The past is equally real to the present in exactly the same way as New York is equally as real as Tokyo. In both cases, we have sets of points which exist along a dimension of measure.

As to how this presents itself in the real world, the easiest way to see this is in experiments which demonstrate Special and General Relativity. We can measure the difference in the rate at which time elapses at different velocities. We can literally see spacetime bend in the presence of strong gravitational fields. We can quite easily demonstrate that if one observer observes events A and B to be simultaneous, another can view the same A to be temporally prior to B, while a third could view A as being temporally subsequent to B.

But how is that real? I mean with my mother for instance? New York is equally as real as Tokyo, but my mother is not the same. She was alive but now she is dead. There is nothing equal about that. There is a change in her state or condition.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

But how is that real? I mean with my mother for instance? New York is equally as real as Tokyo, but my mother is not the same. She was alive but now she is dead. There is nothing equal about that. There is a change in her state or condition.

There certainly is something equal about that. I don't know when your mother passed, but assuming she was alive at the time, it is real that your mother is alive at the temporal position of April 23, 1972. It is equally real that your mother is not alive at the temporal position of March 31, 2015. Those two points in time are equally extant. April 23, 1972, is a real position in time. March 31, 2015, is a real position in time. December 8, 2054, is a real position in time.

[seer]

There certainly is something equal about that. I don't know when your mother passed, but assuming she was alive at the time, it is real that your mother is alive at the temporal position of April 23, 1972. It is equally real that your mother is not alive at the temporal position of March 31, 2015. Those two points in time are equally extant. April 23, 1972, is a real position in time. March 31, 2015, is a real position in time. December 8, 2054, is a real position in time.

Yes, that is fine but the condition of my mother changed. She is not equally the same. So the past is not equal to the present when it comes to the condition of my mother. So the idea that the past, present and future are equally real in all aspects is not correct. There is real temporal change. And how can December 8, 2054 be real if it has not happened yet?

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Yes, that is fine but the condition of my mother changed. She is not equally the same. So the past is not equal to the present when it comes to the condition of my mother. So the idea that the past, present and future are equally real in all aspects is not correct. There is real temporal change. And how can December 8, 2054 be real if it has not happened yet?

You're stuck on the A-Theory. You're not even attempting to view things from the perspective of the B-Theory. You're basically saying, "The B-Theory can't be true because things work differently on the A-Theory." That's simply poor reasoning.

[seer]

You're stuck on the A-Theory. You're not even attempting to view things from the perspective of the B-Theory. You're basically saying, "The B-Theory can't be true because things work differently on the A-Theory." That's simply poor reasoning.

No Boxing, I'm looking at reality. Do you agree that there was a change in my mothers condition? That her condition is different - i.e. alive or dead? And again how can December 8, 2054 be real if it has not happened yet?

[Boxing Pythagoras]

No Boxing, I'm looking at reality. Do you agree that there was a change in my mothers condition? That her condition is different - i.e. alive or dead?

I agree that her condition on April 23, 1972, is different than her condition on March 31, 2015. That does not imply that April 23, 1972, is therefore less real than March 31, 2015.

And again how can December 8, 2054 be real if it has not happened yet?

Because it is a position in spacetime, and not a thing which "happens."

[seer]

I agree that her condition on April 23, 1972, is different than her condition on March 31, 2015. That does not imply that April 23, 1972, is therefore less real than March 31, 2015.

OK, so there is an arrow of time. My mother is not equally the same today. And I'm not sure what you mean when you say that my mother is no less real today. To whom?

Because it is a position in spacetime, and not a thing which "happens."

But there is no position in space time for December 8, 2054 since it is yet future. How can there be a position for something that does not exist?

[Boxing Pythagoras]

OK, so there is an arrow of time.

There is, but that has nothing to do with my previous post.

And I'm not sure what you mean when you say that my mother is no less real today. To whom?

I never said that your "mother is no less real today."

But there is no position in space time for December 8, 2054 since it is yet future. How can there be a position for something that does not exist?

That's the whole point. On the B-Theory, it does exist.

[seer]

There is, but that has nothing to do with my previous post.

I never said that your "mother is no less real today."

Then you are confusing me, you said: That does not imply that April 23, 1972, is therefore less real than March 31, 2015.

So what do you mean when you say that April 23, 1972 and March 31, 2015 are equally real? Real in what sense?

That's the whole point. On the B-Theory, it does exist.

But I will probably be dead by then. Am I dead but I just don't know it?

[Boxing Pythagoras]

Then you are confusing me, you said: That does not imply that April 23, 1972, is therefore less real than March 31, 2015.

So what do you mean when you say that April 23, 1972 and March 31, 2015 are equally real? Real in what sense?

"Real" in that they are equally extant positions in spacetime. In exactly the same sense as saying 74° West Longitude and 139° East Longitude are equally extant positions in spacetime.

But I will probably be dead by then. Am I dead but I just don't know it?

It's certainly possible that you are dead in 2054 without having knowledge of that fact now.

[seer]

"Real" in that they are equally extant positions in spacetime. In exactly the same sense as saying 74° West Longitude and 139° East Longitude are equally extant positions in spacetime.

But 74° West Longitude and 139° East Longitude are equally, physically here. April 23, 1972 is no longer physically here. It is gone. It does not exist anymore. And if it does exist, where does it exist? To whom does it exist?

It's certainly possible that you are dead in 2054 without having knowledge of that fact now.

But you said that 2054 does exist, like does exist - not will exist. So I am dead now since 2054 does exist.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

But 74° West Longitude and 139° East Longitude are equally, physically here.

Precisely. So are temporal positions.

April 23, 1972 is no longer physically here. It is gone. It does not exist anymore. And if it does exist, where does it exist? To whom does it exist?

It exists in the manifold of spacetime. Existence is not dependent upon the observer.

But you said that 2054 does exist, like does exist - not will exist. So I am dead now since 2054 does exist.

"Now" exists. 2054 exists. That doesn't mean that the properties of 2054 are applicable to the properties of Now, any more than the properties of New York are applicable to the properties of Tokyo. The fact that two positions exist does not imply that all things at those positions are the same.