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Miracles

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
    So God is ruled out a priori?
    There is no good reason to rule God in.

    Based upon your a priori rejection of supernatural intervention as even a possibility, I highly doubt a controlled experiment would sway you in any way.
    I didn't reject the “possibility” of supernatural intervention. I said there is no good reason to think that so-called miracles don’t have a natural explanation.

    Actually many people converted because of the supposed miracles.
    That doesn't necessarily make them real miracles.

    What about the numerous cases where health care professionals were involved before and after the miraculous healing?
    Health care professionals acknowledge that there are there are many instances of spontaneous remissions, misdiagnoses and placebo effects.

    One notes that “miracles” seem to occur almost exclusively among people predisposed to believe they exist. E.g. Dr Keener, whom you linked to, is on the faculty of Asbury Theological Seminary wherein its “official Statement of Faith includes an affirmation regarding the Bible as "without error in all it affirms." Hence it would be surprising if he didn't believe in miracles.

    True, but this fact can't be extrapolated to dismissively hand wave the miraculous cases in question.
    The alleged “miracles” have not been “hand-waved” away. The fact is that the only available evidence is anecdotal, none have occurred under controlled circumstances.

    See above.
    There’s nothing to "see above”. The demonstrable fact is that there are many of relapses of the condition after the so-called miracle healings which indicates a psychosomatic or placebo component.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by NormATive View Post
      Nine out of ten children believe in Santa Clause, too.

      NORM
      But we are not speaking of children we are speaking of adults who do not share your materialistic view of the world. And why should they? There is no empirical or deductive argument that can disprove miracles.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        With all due respect, the fact you cannot explain it doesn't mean it didn't have a natural explanation.
        Well I'm open to a natural explanation for what I experienced. I have made this story known to a number of people, even people in the sciences, and so far no natural cause had been suggested.


        Oh joy unbounded!
        Yes Tass, your life is complete again! So glad I could help!
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
          Well, they are Americans.
          And we are the 4th most educated country in the world.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
            So God is ruled out a priori?
            It is not necessary to rule out God, to believe that what appears to be a miracle from the human perspective can have a natural explanation.

            Based upon your a priori rejection of supernatural intervention as even a possibility, I highly doubt a controlled experiment would sway you in any way.
            There have been many studies and research comparing claims of miraculous healing and remission of disease, and the results do not support the claims that the healing was the cause of Divine intervention. It is a possibility in some cases, but the evidence is at best anecdotal and not convincing outside those that believe it.

            Actually many people converted because of the supposed miracles.
            This is clearly faith based conditioning. The human response to seeing what appears to be a faith based healing is not evidence of anything.

            What about the numerous cases where health care professionals were involved before and after the miraculous healing?
            This is where the research and studies come in that demonstrate that the numbers are not higher then the instances of spontaneous healing and remission of disease show that such claims are not sufficient to support Divine intervention.

            I may cite these in later posts, but this dead horse was beaten to death on the old Tweb, and failed to be resurrected or healed.

            True, but this fact can't be extrapolated to dismissively hand wave the miraculous cases in question.
            The fact that many accounts have been documented as false and highly questionable is not dismissing these claims by a hand wave. There remain the possible Divine Interventions is a very small percentage, but not any more then the instances of spontaneous healing in the general population.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-02-2015, 09:38 PM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              But we are not speaking of children we are speaking of adults who do not share your materialistic view of the world. And why should they? There is no empirical or deductive argument that can disprove miracles.
              Your asking for empirical and deductive research to disprove an anecdotal claim, which does not work, Science does not work this way, nor is it possible to prove a negative in this case.

              How about empirical or deductive arguments to PROVE the miracles are true. You can't do that either concerning anecdotal claims.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Your asking for empirical and deductive research to disprove an anecdotal claim, which does not work, Science does not work this way, nor is it possible to prove a negative in this case.

                How about empirical or deductive arguments to PROVE the miracles are true. You can't do that either concerning anecdotal claims.
                That is correct Shuny, you can not prove that miracles don't happen. So one should remain agnostic.

                "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy"
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  That is correct Shuny, you can not prove that miracles don't happen. So one should remain agnostic.

                  "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy"
                  If you read my posts you would find that I am agnostic to miracles, because there is no reason that they could not be the product of natural causes. God's miracle is Creation, everything is created naturally by God.

                  I have never attempted to prove miracles cannot possibly happen.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    If you read my posts you would find that I am agnostic to miracles, because there is no reason that they could not be the product of natural causes. God's miracle is Creation, everything is created naturally by God.

                    I have never attempted to prove miracles cannot possibly happen.
                    Good, and there is no good reason to think that they can't happen. And I'm not sure what you mean by created naturally by God since once you introduce God you have introduced the supernatural.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Good, and there is no good reason to think that they can't happen. And I'm not sure what you mean by created naturally by God since once you introduce God you have introduced the supernatural.
                      No, not if you believe that the Nature of our existence Created by God is natural, and what humans consider miracles and supernatural is the natural not understood. Nonetheless everything described as miracles may well be natural events not understood. Supernatural explanations are not necessary for the explanation of these events.
                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-02-2015, 12:05 PM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        No, not if you believe that the Nature of our existence Created by God is natural, and what humans consider miracles and supernatural is the natural not understood. Nonetheless everything described as miracles may well be natural events not understood.
                        I'm curious, do you believe in the existence of the spiritual?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          I'm curious, do you believe in the existence of the spiritual?
                          Yes. I do not consider the spiritual miraculous nor supernatural.
                          Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-02-2015, 12:47 PM.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            No, not if you believe that the Nature of our existence Created by God is natural, and what humans consider miracles and supernatural is the natural not understood. Nonetheless everything described as miracles may well be natural events not understood. Supernatural explanations are not necessary for the explanation of these events.
                            But Shuny, the universe by definition, if created by God, is supernatural. Even if God used "natural" laws and means, the point is the universe did not create itself. It needed a supernatural Creator.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              But Shuny, the universe by definition, if created by God, is supernatural. Even if God used "natural" laws and means, the point is the universe did not create itself. It needed a supernatural Creator.
                              By definition I consider God a natural Creator.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                By definition I consider God a natural Creator.
                                Is God natural Shuny or supernatural?
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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