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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Is Time Real?

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
    Gossip, of course. What else do women do?
    No, no - after that. It's the baby/kid pics!


    We're addicts - don't expect reason just post the pics!






































































    : Please....
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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    • #77
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Huh!?!?!!?

      A change in temperature would require time. A particular temperature simply exists at any one time does not require time.

      The presence or absence of heat and changes in temperature would reflect Natural Laws.
      You misunderstood me. Er, let me come back to this tomorrow - I'm short on time right now. I was using it analogous to time, not as an example the way you thought.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
        I don't - and this is from my somewhat limited understanding of Classical Theology - that God can have emotions the same way we do. In that sense God is entirely free of passion of any kind. That doesn't mean though that we can't describe Him in those terms and have it be meaningful. It can be proven, so has Christian theologians argued for millenia now, that God is entirely changeless and without such change it doesn't seem He can be subject to emotion.

        Love is more than emotion, its purest form is that of seeking the best for someone else for his or her own sake. I think we have to understand love in that term, rather than in terms of what emotional feelings we have.
        Got the first one - figured that was what you'd say. But that was why I referenced 1 Cor 13 - it's the love chapter and Paul's definition doesn't depend at all on emotion. I don't see how this could be true if God is as you describe. Saying God can merely be described in emotional terms doesn't work here and is somewhat weak from a Scripture POV (yeah, it's another thread, I know). Scripture is emphatic that God does love - see John 3:16 - but


        Um, let me come back to this tomorrow and flesh that out. I really am short on time.


        Stop making things interesting when I don't have time to play!!!!
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          Soace?
          Space what we think of being 3 dimensions. It, space, is invisible. We see it by what is in it.

          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          I think we are in agreement, I didn't mean that a change of somekind didn't take place, however you said The Logos underwent change. However The Logos has always been used to refer to The Son that proceeds from The Father, and The Son cannot undergo change. However you do seem to mean that The Son took on a human nature in addition to His divine nature.

          But its a different discussion so I won't say anything more on it here.
          I disagree in part. I hold the view that the Son did change. Not in being God. But in being one who was someone other than God. Always facing God, being "with God.". "With God" is not the same as being God. Yet he was always both.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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          • #80
            Seer

            If change is real, in what way could time not be real?

            I guess it is possible that if you take the Nihilist or as some believe in Vedic traditions everything is ultimately an illusion and not real.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-03-2015, 10:07 AM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              I'm not talking about the nature of Freewill here, its not really relevant to the discussion as I see it.

              I'm trying to understand what kind of view you have of time, because its not actually clear to me whether we disagree, or whether we are merely describe the same thing is different terminology. Lately I've tried to be extra careful about this because I've found that two people can wind up spending a lot of energy arguing over what things are called, and not what things are.

              Do you believe that Christ is hanging on the Cross in some sense... displaced along some fourth space-time axis? That the past is not merely some state the world has passed through, but that it actually concretely exists? The same with the future?
              I believe in the B-theory of time. I believe the universe is more than just the present. The universe is all of time and space. Think of a DVD disc as the universe. It contains a movie, complete. You can hold that entire movie in your hand. The "present" is like playing back the movie. To the characters in the movie, "now" is what is on the screen at the moment. You know every bit of the movie, past and present.

              You are experiencing being in the moment, the present, the NOW as you read this post. But you also experienced the same thing yesterday when you went to sleep. You experienced that time as the present, the NOW. And you will do the same in a day, month, year, etc. You experience every moment of your life as "now" - what makes you think that the "now" of reading this post is the real now and not the one you experienced yesterday? Your consciousness moving along your 4 dimensional self is what is the present. Now is the illusion. Past and Future is real. "Present" is the future becoming the past for your consciousness.

              You seem to believe in the A-theory. That the future and past do not exist. Only the present.

              Forgetting all of the various problems with time-traveling (the earth not being in the same location at different times, etc) - as a thought experiment let's suppose we had a time machine like in the sci-fi books. You punch in a date and travel there. In your idea of time, what happens if you choose to go to:
              1) Jan 1, 3000 - if the future doesn't exist, do you end up anywhere, or just disappear?
              2) Jan 1, 1800 - same question.

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              • #82
                Both quantum mechanics and General Relativity appear to be B theories (B-theory of time----Sparko [or maybe soelled soarko]).
                The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

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                • #83
                  Sparko,

                  There is only now and the past. The future to be is only in the omniscience of God. For us the future does not yet exist. Only the now and the past exists. And for us, the arrow of time, as it has been called, only flows to the future. And that has to do with the immutability of truth.
                  Last edited by 37818; 02-03-2015, 04:10 PM.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Or an illusion, just an abstract that we invent to mark successive events?
                    My best guess is that "time" is neither an illusion, nor a thing in itself. The universe is eternal and infinite, and so of itself is both timeless and motionless. Motion only occurs within the universe and so time is the measure of that incremental motion within and with respect to the eternal and so motionless whole. So, time is naught but an abstract term that we use to describe the motion of things within eternity.

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