Baptists aren't Protestants?

[The Curtmudgeon]

Baptists claim their historical roots in the Anabaptist movement, which was perscuted by the Catholic church, and supposedly can trace it's roots back to the days of the apostles.

That's partly correct, but it doesn't go far enough. When I was growing up, it was commonplace for Baptists to disclaim the "Protestant" label because the Baptist faith goes back to roots older than Luther and the 16th century Protestant Reformation -- but very often, individual Baptists not deeply interested or studious in history couldn't have named those roots, and sadly I do know of Baptists who were absolutely astounded to learn that we don't trace our beliefs back to John the [Southern] Baptist.

Whom we do trace back to, prior to the Anabaptists, were primarily John Wycliffe and John Hus. These men would not have known the "Baptist" label in their time, but many of their teachings were specific sources for the beliefs that later became labelled "Baptist". (Of course, other denominations besides the Baptists also trace back to Wycliffe & Hus; Luther himself used a lot of Wycliffe's teachings, I believe.) From Wycliffe & Hus, the traditions gained a huge impetus from the non- (or perhaps less-) radical Anabaptist splinters, especially Menno Simmons (albeit we've never really been grouped with the Mennonites, there's a lot of common ground). In England under Elizabeth and then the Jacobite kings, early Baptists rubbed figurative (and sometimes literal) shoulders with other Dissenter groups, and rounded out the fundamentals of Baptist beliefs with some input from Congregationalists and the like. (Since many of these groups who influenced or shaped the direction of the Baptist movement can be fairly called Protestant in their own right, it seems to me fairly silly to insist that we as Baptists are not. And truly, you hear much less about that in Baptist churches--although, perhaps not in our seminaries--now than a few decades back.)

An early Calvinist influence brought about the first major Baptist split, into General and Particular Baptists. By the time the Baptist faith was getting settled into the BNA Colonies, much of the G/P split was being papered over, and Calvinism went mostly underground among American Baptists until fairly recently. We're now seeing nearly as much vituperation over the "Calvinist" label among Baptists as hasn't been seen for over 300 years.

The (hope that this is helpful) Curtmudgeon

[One Bad Pig]

I've been reading The Reformation: A History by Diarmaid MacCullough. Among other things, I've learned that the term "Protestant" was for quite a while limited to German dissenters; the reformers called themselves "evangelicals".

[Joe Gofish]

Baptists claim their historical roots in the Anabaptist movement, which was perscuted by the Catholic church, and supposedly can trace it's roots back to the days of the apostles.

Michael

Baptists claim their historical roots in the Anabaptist movement, which was perscuted by the Catholic church, and supposedly can trace it's roots back to the days of the apostles. JUST OUT AND OUT WRONG

[Joe Gofish]

Baptists claim their historical roots in the Anabaptist movement, which was perscuted by the Catholic church, and supposedly can trace it's roots back to the days of the apostles. JUST OUT AND OUT WRONG

Will you please give us your FACTS

[The Curtmudgeon]

Will you please give us your FACTS

Actually, any good, thorough history of the Anabaptists will show that they were persecuted by not only the Roman Catholics, who were at that time persecuting and executing dissenters of all stripes, but by the "mainstream" Protestants -- Lutherans and Zwinglians, and Anglicans in England -- as well.

Anabaptists were pretty much persecuted whereever they showed up, by whoever was the majority sect in that area, Roman or otherwise, unless they took root and grew quickly enough to become the local majority before the persecutions got going good. This was primarily due to the nature of the two main ideas that separated the Anabaptists from the other denominations at this time: Believer's Baptism, and Separation of Church and State. Romans, Lutherans, Zwinglians/Calvinists and Anglicans were all state-sponsored (or state-sponsoring, depending on your point of view) denominations, tightly linking their church with the political order of their area, and using Pedobaptism to unite the whole polity within their denomination. Anabaptists would have no part with this: Only people mature enough to understand the principal of Christ's atonement for the remission of sins should or could be baptised, and the state had no authority to force anyone to join any particular sect or creed -- Christianity had to be willingly and intelligently chosen by each person for himself, or was meaningless. That put them on the wrong side of pretty much every Christian denomination in the early and mid-16th century.

Here's a pretty good summary of the various persecutions of the Anabaptists: Anabaptist History - Persecutions.

The (persecution is good for the Church, but not when it's the Church doing the persecuting) Curtmudgeon

[Pursuing_Truth]

Baptists claim their historical roots in the Anabaptist movement, which was perscuted by the Catholic church, and supposedly can trace it's roots back to the days of the apostles.

Michael

Contrary to popular belief, Baptist origins come from the Puritans not the Anabaptists. While the Puritans were still in Holland, many of them began to move away from infant baptism to believers baptism by immersion. Roger Williams, a Puritan, was exiled from the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1635 and started the colony of Providence, RI. He was exiled due to his criticisms of the MBC for not seperating enough from the Church of England, taking Indian land without compensation, and their alliance between church and state. Williams planted the first Baptist congregation in 1639 with Welsh and other immigrants. Williams went on to reject the Baptists as he repudiated all visible forms of the Church. The rejection of infant baptism may have come from Anabaptist influence by the Baptists do not have Anabaptist origins. Their origins are English Puritanism.

[Pursuing_Truth]

And, by the way, Baptists are and always have been Protestants.

[The Curtmudgeon]

Contrary to popular belief, Baptist origins come from the Puritans not the Anabaptists. While the Puritans were still in Holland, many of them began to move away from infant baptism to believers baptism by immersion. Roger Williams, a Puritan, was exiled from the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1635 and started the colony of Providence, RI. He was exiled due to his criticisms of the MBC for not seperating enough from the Church of England, taking Indian land without compensation, and their alliance between church and state. Williams planted the first Baptist congregation in 1639 with Welsh and other immigrants. Williams went on to reject the Baptists as he repudiated all visible forms of the Church. The rejection of infant baptism may have come from Anabaptist influence by the Baptists do not have Anabaptist origins. Their origins are English Puritanism.

Over-simplification, I'm afraid. If anything, it might be better to say that Baptists trace descent from both the Puritans and the Anabaptists, but I look more to the Anabaptists mainly because American Baptists owe more of their current beliefs to the General Baptists, who were primarily Anabaptist-influenced, as opposed to the Particular Baptists who were more like the Puritans. While the earliest Baptists in the American colonies still showed some of the prevailing English split between GB and PB, the split disappeared, or perhaps was papered over, rather soon over here with more of the Generalist beliefs prevailing than otherwise.

But in fact, saying that the Baptists had their origins in the Puritans is like saying that they had their origins in the Roman Catholic church -- it speaks only for the historical placement of religious movements in Christianity without addressing the origins of beliefs. The Baptists were really an outgrowth of the Separatist movement, those Christian communities who had essentially given up on "Purifying" the Anglican church (which is the origin of the name Puritan, of course) and had determined on Separation as the only hope of restoring True Worship. Although the Puritans would eventually move more in a separatist direction themselves, originally their intention (like Luther's) was to reform and purify from within the Established Church. And from the very earliest Baptists, they deliberately looked to the pre-Lutheran martyrs Wyclif and Hus as embodying the principles on which they would stand. And like the Pilgrims, English Baptists were forced to spend years in Holland (or the Low Countries, as it was mostly known at that time) where they very definitely came under the direct influence of the Anabaptists.

While Roger Williams is certainly looked up to by American Baptists for forming the first Baptist congregation over here, he could not be considered with Baptist origins except strictly on that local basis. The Baptists had been in existence for at least a half-century before his time, and the lines of our beliefs were already laid down.

The (but the one thing Baptists are supreme at is arguing among ourselves) Curtmudgeon

[The Wolf]

Technically, protestant would be a denomination that descends apostolically from Luther.

Michael

Luther was an apostle?
Protestant are the ones protesting, needlessly these days, against The Church.

[Joe Gofish]

The Anabaptist was started in 1521 by Storch and Munzer.

The Baptist was started in 1609 By Smith.
Both are man made churchs,one 1485 and the other 1397 years after the death of Christ.

[One Bad Pig]

The Anabaptist was started in 1521 by Storch and Munzer.

The Baptist was started in 1609 By Smith.
Both are man made churchs,one 1485 and the other 1397 years after the death of Christ.

Christ died in AD 124?

[Okieshowedem]

As an Exbaptist I can say Baptist are more like Catholics.
They have the same God, they observe most the same holidays.
Both fight against the Laws written in their own Bibles.
Both have changed the Sabbath to Sunday with out any Scriptural authority what-so-ever.
Since the Catholic Church is called the great whore in Rev.17:5 and the Protestants are her daugthers
I would say that make the Baptist her sister..;o)

Okieshowedem

[One Bad Pig]

Your interpretation of Revelation is sadly lacking.

[technomage]

Your interpretation of Revelation is sadly lacking.

I thought for a moment you were talking to me.

[One Bad Pig]

I thought for a moment you were talking to me.

I haven't seen your interpretation of Revelation yet.