God's choice of Israel

[Findo]

It seems to me that all too often a discussion of God's choice in election is abstracted into the realm of philosophy and not left in the realm of biblical theology.
One of the most common objections to unconditional election is to say that unless God bases His choice on something within the individual (e.g. foreseen faith) then it is a random or arbitrary choice.
I don't think this is what we see in scripture.
Perhaps it is helpful to take it back to the OT, where no one doubts that God chose the nation of Israel to be His redeemed people.
But what do we see is the basis for this choice? Let's have a look:

Deut ch7 ESV

6 “For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7 It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8 but it is because the Lord loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

The reason that God chose Israel, w are told, is because He chose to set His love on them, not because they were great, but because He did...

Is this an arbitrary choice?

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

It seems to me that all too often a discussion of God's choice in election is abstracted into the realm of philosophy and not left in the realm of biblical theology. One of the most common objections to unconditional election is to say that unless God bases His choice on something within the individual (e.g. foreseen faith) then it is a random or arbitrary choice.

Part of the trouble lies in the designation "unconditional election" itself. "Unconditional imples that there simply are no criteria that God uses to choose the elect, under Calvinism. And if there are no criteria that anyone can discern or articulate, then it seems to follow that the choice is random or arbitrary. What criteria do you think God employs in choosing someone?

And, how does God choose? This becomes crucial.

Sometimes, Calvinists speak of God choosing among sinners and saving some of them as an act of mercy. He isn't obligated to save any. In that case, how does God pick the objects of his choice and differentiate them from others whom he leaves to damn?

Other times, God is portrayed by Calvinists as taking a yet undifferentiated blob of clay and fashioning individual men as both vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy. In keeping with this, reprobation, as part of God's eternal decree, seems to articualte the view that the vessels of wrath were designed to be sinners and then to be damned, before they did anything good or evil, according to the Calvinist's interpretation of Romans 9.

In the first case, though human beings are treated as a generic body of sinners, God differentiates them somehow. But how? In the second case, God takes an undifferentiated lump of clay and himself makes the objects of his wrath, as well as the objects of his mercy---apart from their doing either good or evil. In the second instance, God seems to design the vessels of wrath specifically for damnation. In the first instance, God's choice seems to have been made prior to their existence; in the second, God's choice seems to be placed within another scenario. But in neither case can we isolate any criteria for the Calvinist so that we may move beyond the idea that God's choices are arbitrary.

I don't think this is what we see in scripture.
Perhaps it is helpful to take it back to the OT, where no one doubts that God chose the nation of Israel to be His redeemed people.
But what do we see is the basis for this choice? Let's have a look:

Deut ch7 ESV

6 “For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7 It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8 but it is because the Lord loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

The reason that God chose Israel, w are told, is because He chose to set His love on them, not because they were great, but because He did...

Is this an arbitrary choice?

I think there's more to the passage than that; God chose the Fathers---specifically, and those among their descendants who would believe---also specifically, if one reads scripture as a whole.

As to the "arbitrary" nature of the Calvinist's take on God's choice, if it is alleged that God chose Israel "because He did," isn't that in itself arbitrary???

You assert,"God chooses people because He does, but that's not arbitrary." What can such language mean?

[KantankerousKid]

I do sit and wonder the greatness of God's amazing Grace. It is truly amazing how the decision of God was not based on our conditional choice nor conditional works but His unconditional election to where he set his first love on and never left from His first love. It is God's sovereign choice that gave mercy on whomever he wants to give mercy. Thus, it is unconditional. So, to answer your question, it is arbiturary choice of God.

[Ponfyr]

I do sit and wonder the greatness of God's amazing Grace. It is truly amazing how the decision of God was not based on our conditional choice nor conditional works but His unconditional election to where he set his first love on and never left from His first love. It is God's sovereign choice that gave mercy on whomever he wants to give mercy. Thus, it is unconditional. So, to answer your question, it is arbiturary choice of God.

I too sit and wonder...

Book of Exodus Chapter 19

4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself. 5 Now therefore, if ye will hearken unto My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be Mine own treasure from among all peoples; for all the earth is Mine; 6 and ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.'

JPS 1917 - Emphasis mine

...how someone continuously misses THAT condition. Blessings be upon you and may Calvin himself testify for you before the seat of Judgment. For me I'll just take the sufficiency of the blood of Christ and leave Calvin where I found him.

[PaulT]

I wonder, does the same wording appear in Gen 12:1 when God decided to speak to Abram out of all those heathen living in Ur.

In Christ,
Paul

[Ponfyr]

I wonder, does the same wording appear in Gen 12:1 when God decided to speak to Abram out of all those heathen living in Ur.

Book of Genesis - Chapter 12

1 Now HaShem said unto Abram: 'Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land that I will show thee. 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and be thou a blessing. 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse; and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.'

JPS 1917 - Emphasis mine
** HaShem is hebrew for 'The Name' in reverence for the creater

To my sight the bolded text looks like the condition. If Abram didn't obey it he then had no reason to believe he would receive the blessings from God.

As I understand them a Calvinist would say this whole text is unnecessary as a totally depraved man is incapable of obeying God and a regenerated (elected) man cannot resist God’s grace. In essence the Bible is worthless. Now of course a Calvinist would never admit to that directly, they tend to ignore logical consensuses to their suppositions.

Example Calvinist arguments could be ‘God’s ways are not man’s ways’ or ‘God is Sovereign’ – both arguments logically fail if man has freewill to choose. Because to a Calvinist if God is Sovereign then He has predetermined every action and man has no free will at all. This tells me the Calvinist has never read the Bible in the fist place. It is full of people rejecting God and God putting conditions of what he accepts as worthy. 2 Kings 5:10-14 if “Naaman washes in the River Jordan seven times…”, Genisis 4:7 God tells Cain “If thou doest well, shall it not be lifted up?” This of course contradicts the teaching of one John Calvin.

[PaulT]

Book of Genesis - Chapter 12

1 Now HaShem said unto Abram: 'Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land that I will show thee. 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and be thou a blessing. 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse; and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.'

JPS 1917 - Emphasis mine
** HaShem is hebrew for 'The Name' in reverence for the creater

To my sight the bolded text looks like the condition. If Abram didn't obey it he then had no reason to believe he would receive the blessings from God.

Take your glasses off, hmm, where is the IF? Guess you missed that, eh, or is it one of those nuance things endemic to the language. Sounds like a command to me, but then again I don’t have my goggles on.

Tell you what, if you think someone is going to do something, not counting he was leaving his family, security, home and break-out into an unknown country voluntarily based on a promise from an unknown voice without prior experience, I got some prime beachfront property in mid state Nevada to sell you. Come on down.

In Christ,

Paul

[Ponfyr]

Take your glasses off, hmm, where is the IF? Guess you missed that, eh, or is it one of those nuance things endemic to the language. Sounds like a command to me, but then again I don’t have my goggles on.

Tell you what, if you think someone is going to do something, not counting he was leaving his family, security, home and break-out into an unknown country voluntarily based on a promise from an unknown voice without prior experience, I got some prime beachfront property in mid state Nevada to sell you. Come on down.

In Christ,

Paul

I don't ware nor need glasses. I didn't miss an 'if'. However you seem to ignore them often. Let me ask you something, How did you get into Christ?

Just so you know, I agree it was a command. But following it is another matter. Abram had to obey the command IF he expected the reward.

~Ponfyr - Recognizing the god of John Calvin is none other than Satan.

[PaulT]

P,

I don't ware nor need glasses. I didn't miss an 'if'. However you seem to ignore them often. Let me ask you something, How did you get into Christ?

Just so you know, I agree it was a command. But following it is another matter. Abram had to obey the command IF he expected the reward.

~Ponfyr - Recognizing the god of John Calvin is none other than Satan.

You might want to have your eyes checked I hear they are the second thing to go... Apparently you missed my drift on the offer of beach front land in Nevada, think about it. Do you see anywhere in Scripture that Abram expected a reward? Does he even question God? No, God spoke, he took off, based on Scripture it does not appear adherence to the command was another matter to Abram. I understand, God had provided a bunch of evidence at that point in history that he could trust what He said. Abram had access to the Bible, the Law of God, and historical testimony of archeology. Heck, I’m sure Abram have even viewed the movie the Passion, why wouldn’t he just take off. Again the land I have to offer is real cheap, beach front prime real estate.

Regarding your question concerning my personal testimony, when I was a kid I felt God singling me out and telling me that I was in trouble without Him. While not understanding all the in’s and out’s of the matter I knew the message I was hearing was the Truth. Like Abram I picked up and left, no questions asked. However, along the way, I haven’t been always as faithful as I should have, yet no matter the circumstance I’m always brought back to Christ. Some of my friends down through the years have wondered why I’m a believer; the message to them didn’t/doesn’t make sense. In fact most of those who haven’t believed were much smarter than I. But they couldn’t understand nor see the truth, which set me free. I don’t think they heard/hear the same message, because I’m no more rational than they and like I said most of them are a lot brighter. If you doubt this, just head on over to the LDS threads and check out what smart folks believe and the rationale they use to support their ill found belief.

In Christ,

Paul

[Ponfyr]

This is your brain....

This is your brain on John Calvin:

John Calvin

"Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone."

---Excerpt from "Ad Quaelstiones et Objecta Juaei Cuiusdam Responsio," by John Calvin; The Jew in Christian Theology, Gerhard Falk, McFarland and Company, Inc., Jefferson, NC and London, 1931.

any questions?

[Ponfyr]

[You might want to have your eyes checked I hear they are the second thing to go... Apparently you missed my drift on the offer of beach front land in Nevada, think about it.

First off I am diabetic; This means I have Diabetic Retinopathy Screening often. My eye examine is by far more thorough than most humans endure and I can tell you for certain I don’t need glasses. Understanding that you have no argument to offer hence you are offering humor – I’ll take no offence.

Do you see anywhere in Scripture that Abram expected a reward? Does he even question God?

Whoah! Nice shooting Tex. Of course I do. But it is obvious you didn't. Have you read the talmud? Didn't he question God when he was pleading for God not to destroy Sodom? Didn't he question God when he slep with Hagar to bear a child?

I understand, God had provided a bunch of evidence at that point in history that he could trust what He said. Abram had access to the Bible, the Law of God, and historical testimony of archeology. Heck, I’m sure Abram have even viewed the movie the Passion, why wouldn’t he just take off. Again the land I have to offer is real cheap, beach front prime real estate.

Ummm no comment.

[Ponfyr]

You might want to have your eyes checked I hear they are the second thing to go...

'Eyesight' really? I always heard it is when you start to believe Calvin.

Sorry - I was just kidding. My evil twin typed that! No, Really!

[Ponfyr]

Regarding your question concerning my personal testimony, when I was a kid I felt God singling me out and telling me that I was in trouble without Him. While not understanding all the in’s and out’s of the matter I knew the message I was hearing was the Truth.

Satan is an angel who appears as an "angel of light" (II Corinthians 11:14,15) How do you know it was not him whispering into your ear?

Are you married? Do you have children? Are they saved as well? How about your mother? and you father?

Please tell me, what is God's purpose for the Bible? What does it accomplish if anything at all?

[PaulT]

P

Whoah! Nice shooting Tex. Of course I do. But it is obvious you didn't. Have you read the talmud? Didn't he question God when he was pleading for God not to destroy Sodom? Didn't he question God when he slep with Hagar to bear a child?

This is a classic, you're accusing Calvin of satanic origins then you reference the Talmud. Give me a break, I thought you were serious.

[Ponfyr]

This is a classic, you're accusing Calvin of satanic origins then you reference the Talmud. Give me a break, I thought you were serious.

No... I referenced the Jewish Tanakh (Christian Old Testament). I merely asked if you had read the Talmud. Please pay attention; these details are important. I am always serious... Well most of the time. Do you honestly believe the Talmud is Satanic? My, my, my, you are a Calvinist.