Zero-Point Calvinist confessed and defended

[Pereynol of Sheer Dread]

You boys play nice, now!

[Arminian]

You boys play nice, now!

Too late.

[Ponfyr]

What do I think? I think you are a flaming idiot who intentionally misrepresents the views of others with artificial bait. I hope you got a good laugh out of your response, because I failed to see the humour in it.

You misspelled humor…

I have a confession to make. One that I am not proud of, but nevertheless it is wholly true… I am a trained passionless killer. I have been trained by the US Government to find and exploit weaknesses in people. Physical or Psychological… it didn’t matter. I am the worst of all sinners. My conscious has certainly been seared, as remorse is nothing but a liability in the eyes of the government. I am an empty sinner of no particular worth. But I still have hope.

As our brother Paul wrote to Timothy through the Holy Spirit:

1 Timothy 1:12-16 (NASB)

12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, 13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; 14 and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus. 15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

When I read these words I know I must believe that I have a chance! To accept Calvinism as true now means to accept that I am condemned to hell for all eternity. In spite of this, the Gospel I know is good news. Good news for all mankind, not a privileged few or pre-selected men. His word says ‘All men who believe’, not just all men who are appointed. A free gift certainly from Christ Jesus, but just as certain it is never earned nor merited. Still, I must seek it. I will seek it with faith in Christ that if I seek Him… I will find Him. If I knock He will open the door.

I guess this means I'm not on your "elect" list of party invitations.

I mean this with all sincerity…You are certainly invited to the party Apologist4Him, You are His honored guest. He died for you. What would make you think you were ever not welcomed?

[BenK]

To accept Calvinism as true now means to accept that I am condemned to hell for all eternity.

I'm sorry, I missed the connection here. Why couldn't God have predestined you to be a trained passionless killer and then repent and be saved?

[Ponfyr]

I'm sorry, I missed the connection here. Why couldn't God have predestined you to be a trained passionless killer and then repent and be saved?

In the simplest terms that I can: I am in need a savior not a lottery.

According to the religion of Islam, the sum of my good deeds must outweigh the bad deeds I have done… I just do not have that much time. So according to Islam I am hopelessly lost.

According to Hinduism and, later, Buddhism and Sikhism, the sum of a person's actions, is regarded as determining that person's future states of existence… Which means my negative Karma will destine me to be reincarnated as a slug or worse.

I was not born of Jewish blood so I cannot escape being a gentile. The Torah just was not given to Moses for me. I just don't qualify. I have looked at the promise God made to Abraham, about 'blessing those that bless you'… but I am not sure how that fits in my life yet. How does one bless the descendants of Abraham?

According to my Creek blood heritage, or Muskogee (in traditional spelling Mvskoke), my medicine or spirituality is that I need to be at one with nature and be in contact with my animal spirit, whatever that is suppose to mean. I am pretty sure I don’t qualify.

In Calvinism it all boils down to a lottery, whoever God chooses; there will be some who are elect and some who aren’t. I am just not that lucky. Every wager I have ever made I lost. I just can’t put my hope in a lottery…

In Christianity, (I make a distinction between Calvinism and Christianity) is my only hope. When the Angles descended down to the shepards in the field at Christ’s birth, they said they bring Glad tidings to all: "For today a savior is born." A lottery for a select few is not Glad tidings for all, no matter how you word it.

Therefore, like the song says, "My hope is build on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness" or the atoning blood of Christ. To not is to be lost.

[BenK]

Yes, but the Calvinist would say that by repenting and reforming it would be a really good sign that you were one of the lucky ones.

[Ponfyr]

Yes, but the Calvinist would say that by repenting and reforming it would be a really good sign that you were one of the lucky ones.

Is it possible, if Calvinism is true, that a single person believes himself to be “saved” but he is in fact not saved or not of the Elect? Let’s say he just ‘feels’ that he is saved and mistakenly calls these feelings “the spirit working in my life.” It shouldn’t matter whether it was really Satan misleading him or himself stubbornly refusing to see reality. In truth, he is lost and there is nothing he can do to change it... Is this a real possibility?

[Arminian]

Is it possible, if Calvinism is true, that a single person believes himself to be “saved” but he is in fact not saved or not of the Elect? Let’s say he just ‘feels’ that he is saved and mistakenly calls these feelings “the spirit working in my life.” It shouldn’t matter whether it was really Satan misleading him or himself stubbornly refusing to see reality. In truth, he is lost and there is nothing he can do to change it... Is this a real possibility?

Yes, in fact Calvin himself wrote about this. He said that the Spirit Himself affects some people in such a way as to give them the belief that they are saved and assured, when if fact they are not. According to him -- if memory serves me -- God does this to show how depraved they really are.

[Arnold]

Yes, in fact Calvin himself wrote about this. He said that the Spirit Himself affects some people in such a way as to give them the belief that they are saved and assured, when if fact they are not. According to him -- if memory serves me -- God does this to show how depraved they really are.

So you have this Calvinist that is not in fact a chosen one, but convinced he is, out there evangelizing people, not knowing whether he is wasting his time evengelizing to people who also might not be chosen ones, but might accept his message anyway. So conceivably there could churches full of rabid Calvinists, none of which might be chosen ones. In fact, it could be that not one professed Calvinist has ever actually been one of the chosen ones, and that all of the chosen ones are actually Arminians!

Ha!

[Spokoina]

Yes, in fact Calvin himself wrote about this. He said that the Spirit Himself affects some people in such a way as to give them the belief that they are saved and assured, when if fact they are not. According to him -- if memory serves me -- God does this to show how depraved they really are.

Actually, Linda, imo, Calvin was way more brute in describing God's work among those that turned away from faith.

He said:

"Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness. "
Institutes, 24,3

It means God actually enlightened them for a time, but since he (I suppose) failed to make them grateful (they cannot do that on their own, can they?) he will rip it away from them to smite them even more...

Like giving a man a hunger, then putting food there and then ripping it out of his hands so he can know even more deeply the pain of unfulfilled hunger.

Nice man, that Calvin, and even a worse description of God!

[Spokoina]

So you have this Calvinist that is not in fact a chosen one, but convinced he is, out there evangelizing people, not knowing whether he is wasting his time evengelizing to people who also might not be chosen ones, but might accept his message anyway. So conceivably there could churches full of rabid Calvinists, none of which might be chosen ones. In fact, it could be that not one professed Calvinist has ever actually been one of the chosen ones, and that all of the chosen ones are actually Arminians!

Ha!

Oh the irony ! roflol

[Calvinist4Him]

Oh the irony ! roflol

Oh, the lack of humility.

[Arminian]

Actually, Linda, imo, Calvin was way more brute in describing God's work among those that turned away from faith.

He said:

"Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness. "
Institutes, 24,3

It means God actually enlightened them for a time, but since he (I suppose) failed to make them grateful (they cannot do that on their own, can they?) he will rip it away from them to smite them even more...

Like giving a man a hunger, then putting food there and then ripping it out of his hands so he can know even more deeply the pain of unfulfilled hunger.

Nice man, that Calvin, and even a worse description of God!

That's one of the passages I was thinking of!! I'm glad you found it, because I was afraid I'd be asked to look it up.

Anyhow, I prefer to be called Jake, not Linda. But you can call me whatever you like, since neither is my real name.

[Spokoina]

Oh, the lack of humility.

;)

[Spokoina]

That's one of the passages I was thinking of!! I'm glad you found it, because I was afraid I'd be asked to look it up.

Anyhow, I prefer to be called Jake, not Linda. But you can call me whatever you like, since neither is my real name.

lol