Originally posted by Jedidiah
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Pman, my post had nothing to do with the RCC. I can see how you might have gotten that since I was responding to your response to Cath. I was just trying to say that while I disagree with most of your positions (only on political issues actually) I do not write you off. You seem like a sensible person over all in-spite of your politics.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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I don't think we can be overtly confident as to who is a Christian and who is not. I think we can see evidence of salvation in a person's life, but not be 100% sure due to the complexity of humans and the incomprehensible amount of variations and motivations for why we do what we do.
With that said, I am confident that God knows His sheep and will regenerate his elect in his timing. The best we can do is encourage and help one another out along the way.Last edited by Scrawly; 02-11-2015, 10:31 PM.
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Originally posted by pancreasman View PostThanks for letting me post. I find this an interesting topic. My perspective as an 'ex-christian' gives me some insight about this. (Yes, I know for some of you there can be no such thing as an ex-Christian.)
About that, for some, there is a doctrinal position that anyone who ceases to be a Christian must never have been a 'real' Christian in the first place. This has been put to me several times and I find it offensive in that it negates my personal lived experience. When I WAS a Christian I was ardent and active, I studied the scriptures, I prayed and had what I though at the time was a very real life with God. I was a worship leader at a very large church and frequently pronounced by others to be 'Spirit filled' and so on. At that time, I defy anyone who met me to suggest I wasn't a Christian.
I am one of those horrid folks who believe that there is no such thing as an ex-Christian. In support of this let me tell you of two men I know of, one more intimately than the other. These two men were pastors in Christian churches. One spent his life as a pastor and ultimately retired. Both of these men, after preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ for years, came to the realization that their sincerity and experience was misleading. These were honest faithful men. One of them led a friend of mine to salvation in Christ. Both of these men thought they were real Christians until they were actually saved. So if it offends you that I do not count active and ardent behavior as real salvation so be it. If you are not a Christian now, you never were.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostThis may be something of a sidetrack, but it is related.
I am one of those horrid folks who believe that there is no such thing as an ex-Christian. In support of this let me tell you of two men I know of, one more intimately than the other. These two men were pastors in Christian churches. One spent his life as a pastor and ultimately retired. Both of these men, after preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ for years, came to the realization that their sincerity and experience was misleading. These were honest faithful men. One of them led a friend of mine to salvation in Christ. Both of these men thought they were real Christians until they were actually saved. So if it offends you that I do not count active and ardent behavior as real salvation so be it. If you are not a Christian now, you never were.
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostThis may be something of a sidetrack, but it is related.
I am one of those horrid folks who believe that there is no such thing as an ex-Christian. In support of this let me tell you of two men I know of, one more intimately than the other. These two men were pastors in Christian churches. One spent his life as a pastor and ultimately retired. Both of these men, after preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ for years, came to the realization that their sincerity and experience was misleading. These were honest faithful men. One of them led a friend of mine to salvation in Christ. Both of these men thought they were real Christians until they were actually saved. So if it offends you that I do not count active and ardent behavior as real salvation so be it. If you are not a Christian now, you never were.
Perhaps I could put it another way. I was as REAL a Christian as you can get. I was a REAL a Christian as you think you are. I thought I was, just like you. In fact, I don't think there any REAL Christians in that mystical sense in which you use the term. I now think it is all a little earnest self deception. I don't usually say that because I think it's disrespectful to your current lived experience, but if you're free to doubt my experience, then I'm free to doubt yours.
I don't think there's anything constructive to be gained by dismissing out of hand someone's experience. You can only start from where a person is NOW. If your goal is to truly lead me to Christ, this sort of judgement only pushes me further away.
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Originally posted by pancreasman View PostI do find that horrid. Anecdote just won't do it. It's usually justified on what I consider the bad interpretation of a few scriptures. I was a REAL Christian. I trusted utterly in Christ for my salvation. Only my continued self education led me to other conclusions.
Perhaps I could put it another way. I was as REAL a Christian as you can get. I was a REAL a Christian as you think you are. I thought I was, just like you. In fact, I don't think there any REAL Christians in that mystical sense in which you use the term. I now think it is all a little earnest self deception. I don't usually say that because I think it's disrespectful to your current lived experience, but if you're free to doubt my experience, then I'm free to doubt yours.
I don't think there's anything constructive to be gained by dismissing out of hand someone's experience. You can only start from where a person is NOW. If your goal is to truly lead me to Christ, this sort of judgement only pushes me further away.
Basically, you're fine with dismissing someone else's experience, but you don't want others to do it to you.
People who believe that apostates were either never Christians to begin with, or believe that they are currently backslidden do not believe these things because they're mean, or because they necessarily think you're lying about your experience. They believe it because, as far as they can tell, its doctrinal.
In my own personal experience, I've known a few people who were hot on fire for God types. Who actually worked day and night in leadership roles. Who volunteered in a ton of positions. Who knew the Bible in and out. And when they apostatized... honestly... I wasn't that surprised. If I were to sit down and talk to them today about their experience, they'd swear up and down that they really believed, but, you know, when you've been around for awhile, and when you've seen a few people super on fire sort of puff out... you start seeing certain tells. Especially with those people who do things in extremes. It doesn't always end up like that, but I've seen it enough times to not be surprised. I don't know everything that was going on in their minds, but whatever purchase they thought they had on the Rock, it wasn't as secure as they thought. Something happens to apostates to make them lose their trust in God, and it seems to me that saving faith requires a trust that is, in the end game, unshakable. That doesn't mean that Christians won't have their moments of doubt, and I believe sometimes those moments can last years, but something shook them free.
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostThis may be something of a sidetrack, but it is related.
I am one of those horrid folks who believe that there is no such thing as an ex-Christian. In support of this let me tell you of two men I know of, one more intimately than the other. These two men were pastors in Christian churches. One spent his life as a pastor and ultimately retired. Both of these men, after preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ for years, came to the realization that their sincerity and experience was misleading. These were honest faithful men. One of them led a friend of mine to salvation in Christ. Both of these men thought they were real Christians until they were actually saved. So if it offends you that I do not count active and ardent behavior as real salvation so be it. If you are not a Christian now, you never were.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostIMO the language of the NT points to salvation as a continuing process, not a point event. English translations tend to obscure this entirely. Thus in this life, when following Christ, one is being saved; when one is not following Christ, one is not being saved. Though we are faithless, still He is faithful (2 Tim 2:13). If anyone repents and turns to Christ, he is being saved. That possibility is there at least until death. I think these men confused a new, deeper understanding of Christianity with a salvation event.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostMy issue with this view is that it essentially says that one can fall in and out of salvation over the course of their life. One minute you're going to heaven, the next minute you're going to hell, repeat ad nauseum. It seems to make salvation a works type process that one needs to maintain in order to keep their neck above the waves."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostMy issue with this view is that it essentially says that one can fall in and out of salvation over the course of their life. One minute you're going to heaven, the next minute you're going to hell, repeat ad nauseum. It seems to make salvation a works type process that one needs to maintain in order to keep their neck above the waves.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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My view of the loss of salvation (which I do believe is possible) is not that it is just a case where you commit a sin and boom, you lose your salvation. I would say it is more accurate to say that loss is at the point where sin overtakes one's life to the point where it has priority over Christ. Though all Christians will sin now and sin, if a true Christian does, he will sorrow over it rather than rejoice in it.
ETA: Over time, unchecked sin dulls our hearts toward Christ (Hebrews 3:8)."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostPhilippians 2:12 should be kept in mind. Though salvation is of grace and not works, effort is needed to persevere in the faith.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostThat's the passage I usually hear in this type of discussion, but scholars have varying interpretations on it. See for example Gordon Fee's:
"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostExcept that's a caricature of the view. As long as one is acting at least minimally in faith, then one is being saved. If one is ignoring God entirely, then one is not. Salvation is a process of faith, not works; works are merely evidence of faith, without which faith is dead.Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostMy view of the loss of salvation (which I do believe is possible) is not that it is just a case where you commit a sin and boom, you lose your salvation. I would say it is more accurate to say that loss is at the point where sin overtakes one's life to the point where it has priority over Christ. Though all Christians will sin now and sin, if a true Christian does, he will sorrow over it rather than rejoice in it.
ETA: Over time, unchecked sin dulls our hearts toward Christ (Hebrews 3:8).Last edited by Adrift; 02-12-2015, 08:30 PM.
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