Who is a Christian?

[pancreasman]

You know that I disagree with you on almost everything. You know that. I none-the-less must say that every Christian who is not fooling himself (or herself generic pronoun here) must have to recognize much the same thing. Am I good enough to claim Christ? No. But I do not have to be good enough, He is changing me. One fine day I will be good enough - but not in this sad world.

There are specific issues I have with the RCC that go beyond the general idea that we are all broken. IMO there are systemic issues of brokenness that are not acknowledged let alone addressed. However, I am not here to criticise the RCC. That's a personal issue.

[Jedidiah]

Pman, my post had nothing to do with the RCC. I can see how you might have gotten that since I was responding to your response to Cath. I was just trying to say that while I disagree with most of your positions (only on political issues actually) I do not write you off. You seem like a sensible person over all in-spite of your politics.

[Scrawly]

I don't think we can be overtly confident as to who is a Christian and who is not. I think we can see evidence of salvation in a person's life, but not be 100% sure due to the complexity of humans and the incomprehensible amount of variations and motivations for why we do what we do.

With that said, I am confident that God knows His sheep and will regenerate his elect in his timing. The best we can do is encourage and help one another out along the way.

[Jedidiah]

Thanks for letting me post. I find this an interesting topic. My perspective as an 'ex-christian' gives me some insight about this. (Yes, I know for some of you there can be no such thing as an ex-Christian.)

About that, for some, there is a doctrinal position that anyone who ceases to be a Christian must never have been a 'real' Christian in the first place. This has been put to me several times and I find it offensive in that it negates my personal lived experience. When I WAS a Christian I was ardent and active, I studied the scriptures, I prayed and had what I though at the time was a very real life with God. I was a worship leader at a very large church and frequently pronounced by others to be 'Spirit filled' and so on. At that time, I defy anyone who met me to suggest I wasn't a Christian.

This may be something of a sidetrack, but it is related.

I am one of those horrid folks who believe that there is no such thing as an ex-Christian. In support of this let me tell you of two men I know of, one more intimately than the other. These two men were pastors in Christian churches. One spent his life as a pastor and ultimately retired. Both of these men, after preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ for years, came to the realization that their sincerity and experience was misleading. These were honest faithful men. One of them led a friend of mine to salvation in Christ. Both of these men thought they were real Christians until they were actually saved. So if it offends you that I do not count active and ardent behavior as real salvation so be it. If you are not a Christian now, you never were.

[Scrawly]

This may be something of a sidetrack, but it is related.

I am one of those horrid folks who believe that there is no such thing as an ex-Christian. In support of this let me tell you of two men I know of, one more intimately than the other. These two men were pastors in Christian churches. One spent his life as a pastor and ultimately retired. Both of these men, after preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ for years, came to the realization that their sincerity and experience was misleading. These were honest faithful men. One of them led a friend of mine to salvation in Christ. Both of these men thought they were real Christians until they were actually saved. So if it offends you that I do not count active and ardent behavior as real salvation so be it. If you are not a Christian now, you never were.

I agree with your view, however, my support would be derived from Scripture.

[pancreasman]

This may be something of a sidetrack, but it is related.

I am one of those horrid folks who believe that there is no such thing as an ex-Christian. In support of this let me tell you of two men I know of, one more intimately than the other. These two men were pastors in Christian churches. One spent his life as a pastor and ultimately retired. Both of these men, after preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ for years, came to the realization that their sincerity and experience was misleading. These were honest faithful men. One of them led a friend of mine to salvation in Christ. Both of these men thought they were real Christians until they were actually saved. So if it offends you that I do not count active and ardent behavior as real salvation so be it. If you are not a Christian now, you never were.

I do find that horrid. Anecdote just won't do it. It's usually justified on what I consider the bad interpretation of a few scriptures. I was a REAL Christian. I trusted utterly in Christ for my salvation. Only my continued self education led me to other conclusions.

Perhaps I could put it another way. I was as REAL a Christian as you can get. I was a REAL a Christian as you think you are. I thought I was, just like you. In fact, I don't think there any REAL Christians in that mystical sense in which you use the term. I now think it is all a little earnest self deception. I don't usually say that because I think it's disrespectful to your current lived experience, but if you're free to doubt my experience, then I'm free to doubt yours.

I don't think there's anything constructive to be gained by dismissing out of hand someone's experience. You can only start from where a person is NOW. If your goal is to truly lead me to Christ, this sort of judgement only pushes me further away.

[Adrift]

I do find that horrid. Anecdote just won't do it. It's usually justified on what I consider the bad interpretation of a few scriptures. I was a REAL Christian. I trusted utterly in Christ for my salvation. Only my continued self education led me to other conclusions.

Perhaps I could put it another way. I was as REAL a Christian as you can get. I was a REAL a Christian as you think you are. I thought I was, just like you. In fact, I don't think there any REAL Christians in that mystical sense in which you use the term. I now think it is all a little earnest self deception. I don't usually say that because I think it's disrespectful to your current lived experience, but if you're free to doubt my experience, then I'm free to doubt yours.

I don't think there's anything constructive to be gained by dismissing out of hand someone's experience. You can only start from where a person is NOW. If your goal is to truly lead me to Christ, this sort of judgement only pushes me further away.

I'm confused by this post. You find it horrid (and I'm guessing a bit hurtful) when others think that your previous Christian experience was rooted in some sort of self-deception (as evidenced by your apostasy), but on the other hand you admit that you also believe that people who think they're REAL Christians are also suffering self-deception.

Basically, you're fine with dismissing someone else's experience, but you don't want others to do it to you.

People who believe that apostates were either never Christians to begin with, or believe that they are currently backslidden do not believe these things because they're mean, or because they necessarily think you're lying about your experience. They believe it because, as far as they can tell, its doctrinal.

In my own personal experience, I've known a few people who were hot on fire for God types. Who actually worked day and night in leadership roles. Who volunteered in a ton of positions. Who knew the Bible in and out. And when they apostatized... honestly... I wasn't that surprised. If I were to sit down and talk to them today about their experience, they'd swear up and down that they really believed, but, you know, when you've been around for awhile, and when you've seen a few people super on fire sort of puff out... you start seeing certain tells. Especially with those people who do things in extremes. It doesn't always end up like that, but I've seen it enough times to not be surprised. I don't know everything that was going on in their minds, but whatever purchase they thought they had on the Rock, it wasn't as secure as they thought. Something happens to apostates to make them lose their trust in God, and it seems to me that saving faith requires a trust that is, in the end game, unshakable. That doesn't mean that Christians won't have their moments of doubt, and I believe sometimes those moments can last years, but something shook them free.

[One Bad Pig]

This may be something of a sidetrack, but it is related.

I am one of those horrid folks who believe that there is no such thing as an ex-Christian. In support of this let me tell you of two men I know of, one more intimately than the other. These two men were pastors in Christian churches. One spent his life as a pastor and ultimately retired. Both of these men, after preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ for years, came to the realization that their sincerity and experience was misleading. These were honest faithful men. One of them led a friend of mine to salvation in Christ. Both of these men thought they were real Christians until they were actually saved. So if it offends you that I do not count active and ardent behavior as real salvation so be it. If you are not a Christian now, you never were.

IMO the language of the NT points to salvation as a continuing process, not a point event. English translations tend to obscure this entirely. Thus in this life, when following Christ, one is being saved; when one is not following Christ, one is not being saved. Though we are faithless, still He is faithful (2 Tim 2:13). If anyone repents and turns to Christ, he is being saved. That possibility is there at least until death. I think these men confused a new, deeper understanding of Christianity with a salvation event.

[Adrift]

IMO the language of the NT points to salvation as a continuing process, not a point event. English translations tend to obscure this entirely. Thus in this life, when following Christ, one is being saved; when one is not following Christ, one is not being saved. Though we are faithless, still He is faithful (2 Tim 2:13). If anyone repents and turns to Christ, he is being saved. That possibility is there at least until death. I think these men confused a new, deeper understanding of Christianity with a salvation event.

My issue with this view is that it essentially says that one can fall in and out of salvation over the course of their life. One minute you're going to heaven, the next minute you're going to hell, repeat ad nauseum. It seems to make salvation a works type process that one needs to maintain in order to keep their neck above the waves.

[KingsGambit]

My issue with this view is that it essentially says that one can fall in and out of salvation over the course of their life. One minute you're going to heaven, the next minute you're going to hell, repeat ad nauseum. It seems to make salvation a works type process that one needs to maintain in order to keep their neck above the waves.

Philippians 2:12 should be kept in mind. Though salvation is of grace and not works, effort is needed to persevere in the faith.

[One Bad Pig]

My issue with this view is that it essentially says that one can fall in and out of salvation over the course of their life. One minute you're going to heaven, the next minute you're going to hell, repeat ad nauseum. It seems to make salvation a works type process that one needs to maintain in order to keep their neck above the waves.

Except that's a caricature of the view. As long as one is acting at least minimally in faith, then one is being saved. If one is ignoring God entirely, then one is not. Salvation is a process of faith, not works; works are merely evidence of faith, without which faith is dead.

[KingsGambit]

My view of the loss of salvation (which I do believe is possible) is not that it is just a case where you commit a sin and boom, you lose your salvation. I would say it is more accurate to say that loss is at the point where sin overtakes one's life to the point where it has priority over Christ. Though all Christians will sin now and sin, if a true Christian does, he will sorrow over it rather than rejoice in it.

ETA: Over time, unchecked sin dulls our hearts toward Christ (Hebrews 3:8).

[Adrift]

Philippians 2:12 should be kept in mind. Though salvation is of grace and not works, effort is needed to persevere in the faith.

That's the passage I usually hear in this type of discussion, but scholars have varying interpretations on it. See for example Gordon Fee's:

Source: Paul's Letter to the Philippians by Gordon D. Fee

That brings him finally to the imperative, what all of this was aiming at in the first place: "Work out your own salvation." This choice of language is predicated on his prior use of "salvation" in 1:28, which, he asserted, is "from God." But "salvation" is not only something they receive; it is something they do. A great deal of unnecessary ink has been spilt over this passage, as to whether "salvation" has to do with the individual believer or with the corporate life of the community [e.g. FF Bruce who believes it has to do with the community rather than the individual]. But that is a false dichotomy. The context makes it clear that this is not a soteriological text per se, dealing with "people getting saved" or "saved people persevering." Rather it is an ethical text, dealing with "how saved people live out their salvation" in the context of the believing community and the world. What Paul is referring to, therefore, is the present "outworking" of their eschatological salvation within the believing community in Philippi. At issue is "obedience," pure and simple, which in this case is defined as their "working or carrying out in their corporate life the salvation that God has graciously given them." That they must comply with this injunction at the individual level is assumed, and that their final eschatological salvation will be realized personally and individually is a truth that does not need stating, because that is not at issue here. In Pauline theology people are saved one by one to be sure (which is the point of discontinuity with election in the OT), but (in continuity with the OT) they are saved so as to become a "people for God's name." The concern in this passage is with their being his people in Philippi, as v. 15 makes certain ("that you may become blameless and pure, God's children without fault in a crooked and depraved generation").

© Copyright Original Source

[KingsGambit]

That's the passage I usually hear in this type of discussion, but scholars have varying interpretations on it. See for example Gordon Fee's:

Source: Paul's Letter to the Philippians by Gordon D. Fee

That brings him finally to the imperative, what all of this was aiming at in the first place: "Work out your own salvation." This choice of language is predicated on his prior use of "salvation" in 1:28, which, he asserted, is "from God." But "salvation" is not only something they receive; it is something they do. A great deal of unnecessary ink has been spilt over this passage, as to whether "salvation" has to do with the individual believer or with the corporate life of the community [e.g. FF Bruce who believes it has to do with the community rather than the individual]. But that is a false dichotomy. The context makes it clear that this is not a soteriological text per se, dealing with "people getting saved" or "saved people persevering." Rather it is an ethical text, dealing with "how saved people live out their salvation" in the context of the believing community and the world. What Paul is referring to, therefore, is the present "outworking" of their eschatological salvation within the believing community in Philippi. At issue is "obedience," pure and simple, which in this case is defined as their "working or carrying out in their corporate life the salvation that God has graciously given them." That they must comply with this injunction at the individual level is assumed, and that their final eschatological salvation will be realized personally and individually is a truth that does not need stating, because that is not at issue here. In Pauline theology people are saved one by one to be sure (which is the point of discontinuity with election in the OT), but (in continuity with the OT) they are saved so as to become a "people for God's name." The concern in this passage is with their being his people in Philippi, as v. 15 makes certain ("that you may become blameless and pure, God's children without fault in a crooked and depraved generation").

© Copyright Original Source

I don't there's anything in Fee's interpretation that I would disagree with; I think it nicely dovetails with the oft-cited principle that true salvation will result in good works. There are enough moral exhortations in the NT that I think it seems fair to say that living the Christian life requires some effort, regardless of how we identify this sotierologically.

[Adrift]

Except that's a caricature of the view. As long as one is acting at least minimally in faith, then one is being saved. If one is ignoring God entirely, then one is not. Salvation is a process of faith, not works; works are merely evidence of faith, without which faith is dead.

My view of the loss of salvation (which I do believe is possible) is not that it is just a case where you commit a sin and boom, you lose your salvation. I would say it is more accurate to say that loss is at the point where sin overtakes one's life to the point where it has priority over Christ. Though all Christians will sin now and sin, if a true Christian does, he will sorrow over it rather than rejoice in it.

ETA: Over time, unchecked sin dulls our hearts toward Christ (Hebrews 3:8).

Okay, so in your view, how many chances do we get at this assuming we do lose our salvation? Are we re-reborn every time we come back into salvation? Do we become new creations over and over again? Is there a hypothetical limit to the number of times we can be reborn? Are we filled with the holy spirit each time? And what does it mean to have eternal life? Is eternal life something we only have once we die and go to heaven, or is it something we can live in right here and now when we make Christ Lord? If the latter, then how is it that eternal life can dissipate and go away? How can we call it eternal if it can be squelched? How does keeping up minimal faith requirements square up with passages like James 2:12 which says "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."? What does the author of Hebrews mean when he writes in 6:4, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." Is Christ crucified again and again when we come back into saving grace? How do we square this view with passages like John 6:37, 1 John 2:19, and 1 John 3:6?