Why is Calvinism/Arminianism/etc. such a hot topic?

[Sheepdog]

Sheepdog, I think your argument is more watertight than you make it out.

Hebrews 12:2-3

2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

'so that you will not grow weary and lose heart' heavily implies that it is possible for the Hebrews to grow weary and lose heart. Morover, the entire sense of this passage is against a monergistic interpretation. Consider a verse like 15

Hebrews 12:15

15See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.

What does a command to ensure that 'no-one misses the grace of God' say about the grace of God?

Interpeting Hebrews 12 as a monergist proof text would be a truly wild and impressive act of eisegesis.

nice! in fact, look at the first clause of the verse: "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus..." i just noticed that. We are exhorted to look up to Christ (cf. John 3:14-15, Num. 21:5-9), implying that this something we should do. the case against the Calvinist interpretation gets better.

[GoBahnsen]

nice! in fact, look at the first clause of the verse: "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus..." i just noticed that. We are exhorted to look up to Christ (cf. John 3:14-15, Num. 21:5-9), implying that this something we should do. the case against the Calvinist interpretation gets better.

I remember when I was a Finneyite and I gave a Bible study where tapes were made of that study and distributed. I was a better speaker then, than I am now. The title was "What Christ has done/ what we must do".

I was tired of even the little bit of God's sovereignty that Calvary Chapel held to. So I wanted to show them, that it isn't all about Jesus and His work. We have our part and boy we better recognize that or be lost (Finney). So I know where you boys are coming from. Man do I know it. And though you don't go as far as Finney did, you are still more friends than foes of his beliefs.

I suppose you think that the monergists cannot see you over there with your "man's part". We see it and we address it, but you never see our side of it. So...we'll just keep going around the barn until someone get's tired. See you later, after a few laps.

[learning]

What does God save you for?

[GoBahnsen]

What does God save you for?

His own glory, that He might receive all due honor, worship and praise for His glorious Person and grace.

[Arminian]

I remember when I was a Finneyite... I was a better speaker then, than I am now.

But you were probably just as good at doing research...

So I wanted to show them, that it isn't all about Jesus and His work. We have our part and boy we better recognize that or be lost (Finney).

That's Finney, huh?

Here's Finney on the topic:

Another effect of gospel justification is to ensure sanctification. It not only insures all the means of sanctification, but the actual accomplishment of the work so that the individual who is truly converted will surely persevere in obedience till he is fitted for heaven and actually saved.

[GoBahnsen]

But you were probably just as good at doing research...

I was worse then.

That's Finney, huh?

Here's Finney on the topic:
"Another effect of gospel justification is to ensure sanctification. It not only insures all the means of sanctification, but the actual accomplishment of the work so that the individual who is truly converted will surely persevere in obedience till he is fitted for heaven and actually saved."

Ok...so what do you see Finney saying in this statement?

[Sheepdog]

I remember when I was a Finneyite and I gave a Bible study where tapes were made of that study and distributed. I was a better speaker then, than I am now. The title was "What Christ has done/ what we must do".

I was tired of even the little bit of God's sovereignty that Calvary Chapel held to. So I wanted to show them, that it isn't all about Jesus and His work. We have our part and boy we better recognize that or be lost (Finney). So I know where you boys are coming from. Man do I know it. And though you don't go as far as Finney did, you are still more friends than foes of his beliefs.

I suppose you think that the monergists cannot see you over there with your "man's part". We see it and we address it, but you never see our side of it. So...we'll just keep going around the barn until someone get's tired. See you later, after a few laps.

except that it has not been addressed. the monergists in this thread just take potshots, and we answer them, and they make other potshots which are only vaguely related to the last. and so on. i'm still waiting for an adequate reply to my post a couple of pages ago: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...6&postcount=57
(speaking of which, this post still is looking for a good answerin' http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...5&postcount=61)

i commented on this thread earlier to a friend of mine, suggesting that i might post this: "you guys are starting to remind me of the bullies in the sandbox who are always kicking sand at others. when we try to respond in a sensible manner, you just change topics and kick more sand. i for one, am tired of the monkey business."

no. i understand monergism more than you give me credit for. if i didn't, i wouldn't be posting here. however when i compared it to Scripture i found it to be wanting. the Scriptures do not support it, and i think it's supporters realize it. i seriously think you guys realize it is a bankrupt system. why do i say that? because i have not seen Christians so arrogant and overassured they were right. i have not seen so much chest-beating and bully antics from anywhere else except from Calvinists and other like believers. i have not seen elsewhere so much false-humility and "self-righteousness." As for me, i don't care to get into Texan spitting matches: i'm not so quick to redefine my view as "the Biblical doctrines of grace," nor do i contemtuously assume i'm right and treat the Bible like swiss cheese... I'd rather just demonstrate the Biblicity of Arminianism through nuts-and-bolts exegesis... but enough about me, i'm ranting about the monergists. I think it is all a cover. if you act overconfident about your view, then maybe people will be convinced and not think to look under the surface. is that not your worst fear? that someone may look past the facade and see you for what you really are: just simple exegetes who has no more or less of a clue than the rest of us? that we will ferret out the very doubts about your theology you have fought so hard to suppress?

so please don't think you can shake my hand with your right while fixing to stab me in the back with your left. i suspect i see more in regards to the monergist position than perhaps even you do.

(just so there is no ambiguity, whe i reference "you" in this thread, i'm talking to "you" monergists in general... i am not addressing you personally, GB.)

[{Tim}]

I have something to add on the topic of "dead people"...

Granted that Lazarus could not refuse to be raised from the dead, still what is to stop him (if he really rather'd to be dead) from comitting suicide afterwards, and being dead again? Do you think Jesus would have raised him AGAIN if he had? ... So I pick holes in the holes you picked in the analogy. And that is how I think it is.

[Arminian]

I have something to add on the topic of "dead people"...

Granted that Lazarus could not refuse to be raised from the dead, still what is to stop him (if he really rather'd to be dead) from comitting suicide afterwards, and being dead again? Do you think Jesus would have raised him AGAIN if he had? ... So I pick holes in the holes you picked in the analogy. And that is how I think it is.

Lazarus. Great story about a believer being raised from the dead. I look forward to seeing it again, en masse.