Dating the Flood ?

[jason]

I had a thought a bit earlier that I wanted to run by people.

Do you think it is possible to date the flood from textual sources ?

I'm refering to the different flood legends that exist all over the world.

Assuming they come from a single event, do you think it would be possible to look at the differences between them, try to figure out the rate of change and addition to legends in the different cultures and then work towards a rough date that way ?

I don't really know enough to know if such an idea is workable, so I was wondering if more knowledgeable folks on such topics around here might have any idea.

I'm not sure such results would prove much of anything either way because you could always dismiss the findings either way as "calibration error" and so on, still I wonder how it would turn out, if the data could be assembled to do the experiment.

You could also factor in the time it takes for legends to disappear entirely from cultures for ones missing a flood of some sort.

Anyway, just musing.

Jason

[wfaber]

Archaeology gives us estimates of when certain cultures came into existence. Supposedly the American Indians migrated from eastern Asia around 12,000 years ago. Australian aboriginies supposedly migrated from eastern Asia around 30,000 years ago. And their ancestors supposedly migrated from Africa around 40,000 years ago. If this evidence is correct, just how long ago could the flood have occurred? Research in mitochondrial DNA, biochemical differences between different groups, and archaeological dating methods seem to be consistent on these figures.

Do we push the date of the flood that far back? Or do we reject archaeology and biochemistry? And if we do the latter, how can we justify giving any credence to a couple thousand years of oral tradition.

Where there is no written record, oral traditions can change drastically from generation to generation. Many cultures, such as the American Indians, and many African regions, had no written language until the past few centuries.

I'm not taking any position here. Just stating the difficulties in coming to an answer.

[jason]

Do we push the date of the flood that far back?

I have no problem with that, I am no YEC.

Where there is no written record, oral traditions can change drastically from generation to generation. Many cultures, such as the American Indians, and many African regions, had no written language until the past few centuries.

I was under the impression that cultures with strong oral traditions did not change it easily or drastically, that it evolved quite slowly.

So i'm not sure that is true.

Jason

[bandecoot]

I had a thought a bit earlier that I wanted to run by people.

Do you think it is possible to date the flood from textual sources ?

I'm refering to the different flood legends that exist all over the world.

Assuming they come from a single event, do you think it would be possible to look at the differences between them, try to figure out the rate of change and addition to legends in the different cultures and then work towards a rough date that way ?

I don't really know enough to know if such an idea is workable, so I was wondering if more knowledgeable folks on such topics around here might have any idea.

I'm not sure such results would prove much of anything either way because you could always dismiss the findings either way as "calibration error" and so on, still I wonder how it would turn out, if the data could be assembled to do the experiment.

You could also factor in the time it takes for legends to disappear entirely from cultures for ones missing a flood of some sort.

Anyway, just musing.

Jason

It depends on what you are trying to date. An actual global flood, or the origin of the Genesis Flood story. The problem with flood stories is that people tend to live close to water. The sea , a river or lake. These as we know can flood when there is not a cloud in the sky, but it is raining torrents 200 klms upstream. The Nile is a Good example. Egypt still gets almost no rainfall yet the Nile floods annually. So there is one hypothesis you might look at. Floods are a part of living next to water.

If you are looking for a global flood I suggest you ask a geologist for their opinion, You may wish to phrase the question fairly carefully, use terms like hundreds of thousands of years. (that is just advice) To the best of my understanding having spoken to a few geologists on this matter myself there is no evidence in the Geologic Column for a Global flood. At least not when anyting that could communicate the story lived.

As for the origin of the Genesis Flood story, I have been reading something about this just this week but My gist of what the writer is saying not as clear as I would like, due to my disjointed reading of it. I am reading it in my breaks in a 13 hour Invigilator shift. So I may be misreading it, but so far he seems to be pointing to a collation of Canaanite stories and corrupted Egyptian and Fertile cresent stories. When I get it sorted Ill let you know in detail.

[jason]

An actual global flood, or the origin of the Genesis Flood story.

As stated I am not a YEC. I am an OEC. Though I contend that the flood refers to a real event that in all likely hood killed all the people at the time.

So I may be misreading it, but so far he seems to be pointing to a collation of Canaanite stories and corrupted Egyptian and Fertile cresent stories. When I get it sorted Ill let you know in detail.

Except this would not explain Australian Aboriginal Flood legends.

Jason

[bandecoot]

As stated I am not a YEC. I am an OEC. Though I contend that the flood refers to a real event that in all likely hood killed all the people at the time.


Except this would not explain Australian Aboriginal Flood legends.

Jason

Even Australian Indigenes have seen floods jason, They live near to water as well you know. Humans cant live without water. I must point out one tiny little point, who knows more about Australian Climate? You or Me? It does not rain often in the Dead Heart but there are watercourses there and they do flashflood. The Gascoyne River in NW western Australia is dry 9 months of the year, when it fills its 25 feet deep and will sweep a Trainload of Iron ore off the tracks. With the mile long train attached. In 1974 2 cities almost vanished from the maps, Brisbane, the city I live in and Darwin the capital of the Northern Territory. One was a cyclone ...the other, you guessed it a FLOOD. Do a Google search on Floods Australia you will see what I mean.

[Darth Executor]

10k years ago.

[Darth Executor]

Actually, make that even earlier. maybe 13-14 thousand years ago.

[bandecoot]

Actually, make that even earlier. maybe 13-14 thousand years ago.

Now show evidence for your assertion. Should be easy for you do do. You made a bald enough assertion.

[Darth Executor]

Now show evidence for your assertion. Should be easy for you do do. You made a bald enough assertion.

You mean bold. You can't shave assertions. My assertion is based on how far back real man made structures go.

Take the Yonaguni underwater pyramids near Okinawa
http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html

which are roughly 13 thousand years old (they would have to be that old unless you wish to suggest the Japanese carved them under extremely dangerous waters). The link I gave you proposes that most of the older civilisations likely lived near water. If this is true, then a huge flood would explain why there is so little left of anything before that. Humanity thrived, something went wrong, they drowned. Then the survivors starter rebuilding again near water like their ancestors (the japan pyramids aren't the only underwater structures) and they are the oldest surviving structures because nothing really really bad happened since then.

[Cage]

That seems to be quite a stretch.

If a cataclysmic world flood occurred more recently with volcanic eruptions and seismic activity those structures would not have to date back that far.

But then again, that's from my world view perspective.

I didn't see much about the dating of those structures via your link. That site is a bit clutered and disorganized so maybe you can help us by pointing to a specific page with relevant excerpts.

[technomage]

I was under the impression that cultures with strong oral traditions did not change it easily or drastically, that it evolved quite slowly.

No, that's old theory from Victorian and Edwardian times, since refuted. Specific elements in an oral tradition can change very frequently, and the general ideas and ideals of a culture can be adapted or disposed of. These changes are not based on what the culture needed five, ten, or fifty years ago, but on what the culture needs today.

[shunyadragon]

Actually, make that even earlier. maybe 13-14 thousand years ago.

The evidence shows many local catastrophic floods, and changes in sea level occured after the last glacial period. This explains most local flood legends. There is basically no evidence for a world flood.

The Chinese are an exception in that there are not any catastrophic destroy-all floods in their myths and legends. What they have is the flooding of the great rivers, which is well documented and understood in China since Neolithic times. One difference in China is it has the oldest consistent single language and written record. The Dragon Festival celibrated each year in June is in commemoration of the dragon to prevent floods, droughts, disease, and famines for the year. This festival is thousands of years old.

[Olethros]

I had a thought a bit earlier that I wanted to run by people.

Do you think it is possible to date the flood from textual sources ?

I'm refering to the different flood legends that exist all over the world.

Assuming they come from a single event, do you think it would be possible to look at the differences between them, try to figure out the rate of change and addition to legends in the different cultures and then work towards a rough date that way ?

I don't really know enough to know if such an idea is workable, so I was wondering if more knowledgeable folks on such topics around here might have any idea.

I'm not sure such results would prove much of anything either way because you could always dismiss the findings either way as "calibration error" and so on, still I wonder how it would turn out, if the data could be assembled to do the experiment.

You could also factor in the time it takes for legends to disappear entirely from cultures for ones missing a flood of some sort.

Anyway, just musing.

Jason

You may want to check this link out:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom..._011113-1.html

Too many coincidences

Archeological findings show that in the space of a few centuries, many of the first sophisticated civilizations disappeared. The Old Kingdom in Egypt fell into ruin. The Akkadian culture of Iraq, thought to be the world's first empire, collapsed. The settlements of ancient Israel, gone. Mesopotamia, Earth's original breadbasket, dust.

Around the same time -- a period called the Early Bronze Age -- apocalyptic writings appeared, fueling religious beliefs that persist today.

The Epic of Gilgamesh describes the fire, brimstone and flood of possibly mythical events. Omens predicting the Akkadian collapse preserve a record that "many stars were falling from the sky." The "Curse of Akkad," dated to about 2200 B.C., speaks of "flaming potsherds raining from the sky."

[Meh_Gerbil]

I saw one of those stupid 'FOX' specials that hypothosized that the Sphinx was pre-flood. It was fun to watch.