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  • #31
    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
    The part of not really being 100% sure that one is even "hearing from God" yet how one should "act" on that presumption regardless to discover if it is in fact God (even then it seems that if one turned out to be correct, it could be mere coincidence or another number of factors all that preclude God as being involved). The ability to "discern" the voice of God also seems to be a highly subjective exercise.
    I can definitely appreciate that sentiment. However, the assertion coincidence is often said with regards to answered prayer (no matter how 'miraculous'). However, I would assert that the mere facts and probability would preclude the mere existence of coincidence in many cases.

    For example, when my wife talked to the guy who was having doubts about a cult (she had not really talked to this guy before) -

    - she talked to him in a moment that he had prayed for God to tell him the truth (she had no idea that he even believed in God, or any god for that matter).
    - she spoke truths regarding his life that she would have no way of knowing
    - she quoted a verse to him in the Bible that just happened to be on his phone browser that morning (and which he didn't search for, or know how it got there)
    - and that verse directly spoke to the situation in which that guy was dealing with

    So, sure -- someone can 'claim' coincidence - but I believe that it would take more faith to believe that it was coincidence rather than being moved by the Holy Spirit.


    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
    I would also add that indeed JP's video doesn't discuss actually hearing the voice of God, but what it does seem to illustrate is that if one is bent on "hearing the voice of God" then they will see God's leading regardless of what happens - once again highlighting the murky nature of this exercise of "discerning God's voice".
    I think we often want a clear cut prescription. That's why man made religion is so appealing to many people. It seems to answer 'all the questions' and take the 'murkiness' out of the equation. However, I have often found, in my own experience, that faith requires a trust and willingness to step out without all the answers.

    In fact, as a personal anecdote, I have often found that the voice of the Lord has several recurring traits:

    1. Is perfectly in line with the Word of God.
    2. Defies my own reasoning or understanding. (or goes beyond it -- i.e. by my understanding, it wouldn't make sense)
    3. It also often pushes me to do things that I would not want to do otherwise


    To want 100% assurance is to go beyond reason, IMO. (not saying you are saying this) It is important to remember that nothing we know or do, is really '100%' when we understand that we are fallible. The funny thing is that the 'voice of the Lord' has quite the track record in our experience -- much better than our own understanding could ever produce...

    So how do I know it is the voice of the Lord? Well...the fruit..
    Last edited by phat8594; 02-25-2015, 02:29 PM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
      I can definitely appreciate that sentiment. However, the assertion coincidence is often said with regards to answered prayer (no matter how 'miraculous').
      Perhaps this is the case with unbelievers, but not necessarily when it comes to discerning believers.

      However, I would assert that the mere facts and probability would preclude the mere existence of coincidence in many cases.

      For example, when my wife talked to the guy who was having doubts about a cult (she had not really talked to this guy before) -
      She had "not really" talked this guy before?

      - she talked to him in a moment that he had prayed for God to tell him the truth (she had no idea that he even believed in God, or any god for that matter).
      OK

      - she spoke truths regarding his life that she would have no way of knowing
      For example?

      - she quoted a verse to him in the Bible that just happened to be on his phone browser that morning (and which he didn't search for, or know how it got there)
      This was according to him? What was the cult he was flirting with by the way? Because the fact of the matter is that I have a high distrust for people who are susceptible to cults because they tend not to be the clearest of thinkers or reliable in relating facts of events. They seem to be OK with distortion and even outright dishonesty if it's "for God".

      - and that verse directly spoke to the situation in which that guy was dealing with
      Do you remember what the verse was?

      So, sure -- someone can 'claim' coincidence - but I believe that it would take more faith to believe that it was coincidence rather than being moved by the Holy Spirit.
      It depends..

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
        I think we often want a clear cut prescription.
        Can you show me a verse in Scripture where people are attempting to "discern the voice of God"?

        That's why man made religion is so appealing to many people. It seems to answer 'all the questions' and take the 'murkiness' out of the equation. However, I have often found, in my own experience, that faith requires a trust and willingness to step out without all the answers.
        I think most Christian's just want to rely on what the Scripture's teach and not rely on their own experience no matter how good it may seem.

        In fact, as a personal anecdote, I have often found that the voice of the Lord has several recurring traits:
        When you find the "voice of the Lord" what does it sound like? Or is it more a subjective "pull/push"?

        1. Is perfectly in line with the Word of God.
        OK

        2. Defies my own reasoning or understanding. (or goes beyond it -- i.e. by my understanding, it wouldn't make sense)
        But things make sense after you act without understanding? I think it's relatively easy to fit God into anything in hindsight.

        3. It also often pushes me to do things that I would not want to do otherwise
        I think Scripture alone can accomplish that.

        To want 100% assurance is to go beyond reason, IMO. (not saying you are saying this)
        I think most Christian's want to be faithful to God by reading and practicing the Scripture. Many can attest to the dangers of wandering off into the "voice of God" land, and it certainly is not always fruitful.


        It is important to remember that nothing we know or do, is really '100%' when we understand that we are fallible. The funny thing is that the 'voice of the Lord' has quite the track record in our experience -- much better than our own understanding could ever produce...
        In your experience perhaps, but in other's perhaps not. I think much of the success you experience can be had by acting on Scripture alone, and I think much of what others experience that are detrimental due to this "voice of the Lord" can be avoided if they likewise act on Scripture alone.

        So how do I know it is the voice of the Lord? Well...the fruit.
        Cultists often times produce many good works/fruit as well, right?
        Last edited by Scrawly; 02-25-2015, 03:02 PM.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
          Perhaps this is the case with unbelievers, but not necessarily when it comes to discerning believers.
          The principle is the same for the skeptic. For some, no evidence is enough - there is always another answer to why. The mind has already been made up, and thus all evidence is filtered through that mindset.

          Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
          She had "not really" talked this guy before?
          She met him in passing. Heard him cuss a little. That's the extent of what she knew about him. Some guy who cussed.


          Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
          For example?
          One thing was that there were people around him telling him that he needed to do certain things to be 'good enough' for God to accept him...and that he was struggling with those. And yet, God calls us as we are...etc.

          Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
          This was according to him? What was the cult he was flirting with by the way? Because the fact of the matter is that I have a high distrust for people who are susceptible to cults because they tend not to be the clearest of thinkers or reliable in relating facts of events. They seem to be OK with distortion and even outright dishonesty if it's "for God".
          Yeah, I can understand that. I don't think that is the case here though.

          The guy had recently converted to Mormonism - and I am not quite sure how this situation would further his cause, or be 'for God' (especially cause what my wife said, directly contradicted what his Mormon teachers were saying and doing). Given the fact that it went against everything he was taught and believed, it seems to be a stretch to think that he might have had an ulterior motive. He also pulled up the browser on his phone to show my wife.

          Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
          Do you remember what the verse was?
          I think she told him several -- although I can't remember the exact ones. If I am recalling correctly, I think she quoted him:

          2 Corinthians 5:21
          For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


          (which was the verse he had on his phone)

          And I also think she talked about Romans 8 with him.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
            The principle is the same for the skeptic. For some, no evidence is enough - there is always another answer to why. The mind has already been made up, and thus all evidence is filtered through that mindset.
            Oh yes, I agree, but this cuts both ways..

            She met him in passing. Heard him cuss a little. That's the extent of what she knew about him. Some guy who cussed.
            So he cussed, and then she said something along the lines of: "Hi sir, is everything OK?" and then the relationship started from that point?

            One thing was that there were people around him telling him that he needed to do certain things to be 'good enough' for God to accept him...and that he was struggling with those. And yet, God calls us as we are...etc.
            In other words, there were Mormons that were trying to convert him to Mormonism?

            Yeah, I can understand that. I don't think that is the case here though. The guy had recently converted to Mormonism
            I see. I know there are some intelligent Mormon's out there, but it amazes me how a rational person can accept some of the claims of Mormonism. Was this individual of a sound mind?

            and I am not quite sure how this situation would further his cause, or be 'for God' (especially cause what my wife said, directly contradicted what his Mormon teachers were saying and doing). Given the fact that it went against everything he was taught and believed, it seems to be a stretch to think that he might have had an ulterior motive.
            I'm assuming this gentlemen ended up denouncing Mormonism and coming to accept orthodox Christianity? If so, then what I stated about romanticising past events might still come into play.

            He also pulled up the browser on his phone to show my wife.
            Your wife claimed this? Moreover, you stated she pulled up "several" verses? Wouldn't this fact mitigate against the uniqueness of having the same verse on his phone?

            I think she told him several -- although I can't remember the exact ones. If I am recalling correctly, I think she quoted him:

            2 Corinthians 5:21
            For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


            (which was the verse he had on his phone)

            And I also think she talked about Romans 8 with him.
            Cool.
            Last edited by Scrawly; 02-25-2015, 04:06 PM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
              I think most Christian's just want to rely on what the Scripture's teach and not rely on their own experience no matter how good it may seem.
              Yeah -- I agree. And the mature Christians that I know and trust hear from the Lord are the same way. Experience is filtered through the Word of God.

              Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
              When you find the "voice of the Lord" what does it sound like? Or is it more a subjective "pull/push"?
              I have had both prompting (pull / push) and direct commands. I have often times had a strong prompting after getting a direct word.


              Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
              But things make sense after you act without understanding? I think it's relatively easy to fit God into anything in hindsight.
              Yep. It sometimes makes immediate sense, sometimes down the road. So keeping with the same example - my wife had no idea about this guy being even remotely religious (he didn't act like it from what she had seen) and had only met him in passing (so she knew his name). Telling him that the Lord told her to tell him (X,Y, & Z) didn't make sense whatsoever. In fact, it defied all reason. Of course, once she told him, he broke down and she was able to present the gospel to him. I don't know how that is considered 'fitting God back into it in hindsight.'

              Likewise, you could say the same thing with Abraham and his faith - that he believed and trusted God despite all the earthly knowledge to the contrary. I guess someone could say that he just fit God back in based on the fact that Isaac was born..? Same thing -- to the skeptic -- the mind has already been made up, and no amount of evidence will suffice.

              Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
              I think Scripture alone can accomplish that.
              When I say it pushes me to do things I don't want to do, it may be specific -- like go talk to 'Guy A about subject B' -- or 'Girl C is struggling with sin G - exhort, encourage, and pray with her' -- or 'look at such and such passage of the Bible and see how it relates' -- I don't think the Bible gets that specific with our daily situations.

              Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
              I think most Christian's want to be faithful to God by reading and practicing the Scripture. Many can attest to the dangers of wandering off into the "voice of God" land, and it certainly is not always fruitful.
              The misuse or failure of some doesn't discount the reality or importance thereof.

              People often misuse, misunderstand, and abuse scripture -- and yet we still want to read it, right? Because the veracity of Scripture is not testified by those who don't know how to read it, interpret it, etc -- just as the veracity of the Voice of the Lord is not testified by those who don't know how to listen to it, hear it, discern it, etc.

              Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
              In your experience perhaps, but in other's perhaps not. I think much of the success you experience can be had by acting on Scripture alone, and I think much of what others experience that are detrimental due to this "voice of the Lord" can be avoided if they likewise act on Scripture alone.
              I can promise you that 'much of our success could be had by acting on Scripture alone' is not the case. The Bible is amazing and wonderful, and I absolutely love it -- it is the very word of God. And yet, it was written in a particular setting and circumstance -- it wasn't written TO us for our particular situation. It was, however, written FOR us.

              With scripture, we can discern the heart of God, learn His ways, understand His character, and learn more about Him - but we aren't given specific guidance about specific situations.


              Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
              Cultists often times produce many good works/fruit as well, right?
              Well - the fruit I am talking about generally means coming to repentance, coming to Salvation, turning away from cults, being set free from sinful addictions, etc.

              So no, I don't think that cultists generally bring people to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ or other things that foster a closer and more intimate relationship with God.

              That being said -- not sure how cultists doing certain 'works' relates to being genuinely led by the Holy Spirit.
              Last edited by phat8594; 02-25-2015, 05:04 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                So he cussed, and then she said something along the lines of: "Hi sir, is everything OK?" and then the relationship started from that point?
                No. She met him initially -- and noticed that he cussed a bit (so seemingly non-religious). Weeks later she was talked to him. She basically said -- 'This may seem weird, but the Lord wanted me to pray for you and to tell you ....." She then dialogued with him, and then spoke accordingly.

                Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                In other words, there were Mormons that were trying to convert him to Mormonism?
                No, he had converted, and was attending regularly.

                Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                I see. I know there are some intelligent Mormon's out there, but it amazes me how a rational person can accept some of the claims of Mormonism. Was this individual of a sound mind?
                Seemed like your normal broken person looking for hope. Perfect? I would assume not. I think often times mormonism 'fills in gaps' and 'answers a lot of questions' and brings security to people's lives. From what I recall, he felt like a failure - unable to uphold their high standards.

                Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                I'm assuming this gentlemen ended up denouncing Mormonism and coming to accept orthodox Christianity? If so, then what I stated about romanticising past events might still come into play.
                Not quite sure how this would be romanticizing past events. We have seen this through from the beginning, and are still in the process of getting this guy discipled and planted in a church.

                It has been a long process - and although he has been favorable so far towards church and Christianity -- I don't think the battle is over.


                Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                Your wife claimed this? Moreover, you stated she pulled up "several" verses? Wouldn't this fact mitigate against the uniqueness of having the same verse on his phone?
                No, I don't think so at all. She quoted a first verse (same verse on phone -- which the guy claims he didn't know how it got there) - then quoted like maybe two others on the same theme (Christ paying for our sin, and giving us His righteousness). Even with 'two or three other verses' you still have over 31,000 other verses in the Bible to choose from.

                Same verse (then same them of verses) -- all as part of a (divinely orchestrated, IMO) circumstance to present the gospel to someone who prayed for truth -- all of which gave rise to an opportunity to accept Christ and walk away from Mormonism -- I don't see it as a coincidence.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
                  Yeah -- I agree. And the mature Christians that I know and trust hear from the Lord are the same way. Experience is filtered through the Word of God.
                  Yes and this is all very interesting because some mature Christian's that I know and trust never hear personal words from the Lord. They have absolutely no experience of this, yet they are extremely mature and godly and possess an intimate relationship with God.

                  I have had both prompting (pull / push) and direct commands. I have often times had a strong prompting after getting a direct word.
                  Are these "direct commands" in the form of an audible voice?

                  Yep. It sometimes makes immediate sense, sometimes down the road.
                  Right and this is where the portion of JP's video comes in play - one can reflect back upon anything and "see God in it". Like the cartoon Barker driving to the middle of nowhere with nothing happening and then reflecting that this was God testing his faith.

                  So keeping with the same example - my wife had no idea about this guy being even remotely religious (he didn't act like it from what she had seen) and had only met him in passing (so she knew his name). Telling him that the Lord told her to tell him (X,Y, & Z) didn't make sense whatsoever. In fact, it defied all reason. Of course, once she told him, he broke down and she was able to present the gospel to him. I don't know how that is considered 'fitting God back into it in hindsight.'
                  This very well could be a God-thing, but I hesitate to say this is how God communicates with everyone and those that don't experience leadings like this are somehow lacking.

                  Likewise, you could say the same thing with Abraham and his faith - that he believed and trusted God despite all the earthly knowledge to the contrary. I guess someone could say that he just fit God back in based on the fact that Isaac was born..?
                  In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways [Heb. 1:1]. I think the key word is "past".

                  Same thing -- to the skeptic -- the mind has already been made up, and no amount of evidence will suffice.
                  Right but there is a difference between an unbelieving skeptic and a Christian that is attempting to discern whether a person claiming to hear the voice of God, is in fact hearing the voice of God. Healthy skepticism should be practiced by all God's children, and ought to be applied to ourselves as well.

                  When I say it pushes me to do things I don't want to do, it may be specific -- like go talk to 'Guy A about subject B' -- or 'Girl C is struggling with sin G - exhort, encourage, and pray with her' -- or 'look at such and such passage of the Bible and see how it relates' -- I don't think the Bible gets that specific with our daily situations.
                  I don't think any of that requires a direct word from God. Categories of sin are often times so broad that they can be applied to almost anyone, especially when we factor in the fact that we are all sinners, almost everyone can use prayer, exhortation, and encouragement about sin A, B, C, or 'G'.

                  The misuse or failure of some doesn't discount the reality or importance thereof.
                  The fact that many Godly brothers and sisters don't hear from God in this way is not a failure, but perhaps a gift that God has not granted to them.

                  People often misuse, misunderstand, and abuse scripture -- and yet we still want to read it, right?
                  Right, because we are commanded to, and to show ourselves approved.

                  Because the veracity of Scripture is not testified by those who don't know how to read it, interpret it, etc -- just as the veracity of the Voice of the Lord is not testified by those who don't know how to listen to it, hear it, discern it, etc.
                  Yet I fail to see in Scripture commands to listen, hear, and discern the voice of God in the manner you are advocating.

                  I can promise you that 'much of our success could be had by acting on Scripture alone' is not the case.
                  Well this might be where we disagree.

                  The Bible is amazing and wonderful, and I absolutely love it -- it is the very word of God. And yet, it was written in a particular setting and circumstance -- it wasn't written TO us for our particular situation. It was, however, written FOR us.
                  I agree.

                  With scripture, we can discern the heart of God, learn His ways, understand His character, and learn more about Him - but we aren't given specific guidance about specific situations.
                  Perhaps we are given freedom to choose and ought not seek out God to personally communicate in areas that he has given us the freedom to choose.

                  Well - the fruit I am talking about generally means coming to repentance, coming to Salvation, turning away from cults, being set free from sinful addictions, etc.

                  So no, I don't think that cultists generally bring people to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ or other things that foster a closer and more intimate relationship with God.
                  I think simple gospel proclamation and new birth wrought about by the Holy Spirit can accomplish this.

                  That being said -- not sure how cultists doing certain 'works' relates to being genuinely led by the Holy Spirit.
                  Can you define "genuinely led by the Holy Spirit"? And support it from Scripture as applied for all believers.
                  Last edited by Scrawly; 02-25-2015, 07:34 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                    Yes and this is all very interesting because some mature Christian's that I know and trust never hear personal words from the Lord. They have absolutely no experience of this, yet they are extremely mature and godly and possess an intimate relationship with God.
                    Yep - not saying that this is not the case. I was just trying to make a distinction between an immature Christian who claims to hear from the Lord, and a mature one. I am much more apt to believe the mature Christian than I would an immature one.

                    I don't believe that 'hearing from the Lord' is THE mark of the mature Christian. I would assert that one's character, especially in hardship, is more evidence of maturity than hearing from the Holy Spirit.


                    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                    Are these "direct commands" in the form of an audible voice?
                    Not in my experience, no. It is hard to explain -- but I guess the best way to put it is that I hear it in my Spirit.

                    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                    Right and this is where the portion of JP's video comes in play - one can reflect back upon anything and "see God in it". Like the cartoon Barker driving to the middle of nowhere with nothing happening and then reflecting that this was God testing his faith.
                    There are absolutely people who will fit God into their own thinking. However, that is not what I am talking about. I am not talking about finding other explanations to fit my ideology. I am talking about say 3 years down the road someone coming back to you and saying 'because of what you said / did I decided to turn my life from sin and give my life to God' -- that's what I mean by finding out down the road.

                    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                    This very well could be a God-thing, but I hesitate to say this is how God communicates with everyone and those that don't experience leadings like this are somehow lacking.
                    I am definitely not trying to say that others are lacking - or that the experience of one is prescriptive for the life of others.

                    I do believe, however, that many people who could hear from the Lord simply don't take the time to listen. I am sure that much of the time this is due to not knowing, or thinking about it.

                    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                    In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways [Heb. 1:1]. I think the key word is "past".
                    Not quite sure how this applies to Abraham being able to apply God back into his situation, rather than seeing his faith all the way through. Could you expand on this?


                    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                    Right but there is a difference between an unbelieving skeptic and a Christian that is attempting to discern whether a person claiming to hear the voice of God, is in fact hearing the voice of God. Healthy skepticism should be practiced by all God's children, and ought to be applied to ourselves as well.
                    I agree that there is such a thing as healthy skepticism. In fact, if you knew me -- you'd probably see that is how I approach pretty much anything. That being said, healthy skepticism includes being willing to accept the evidence as it stands and then conclude the most likely conclusion. And the most likely conclusion might not be what we want.

                    The analogy is the unbeliever -- whether an unbeliever questioning Christianity, or a Christian questioning someone being led by the Spirit. Both are skeptical of a belief. If one holds to their own view too strongly, then it seems that no amount of evidence will ever be enough. I am not saying that you are doing this - but that many people do this...whether we are talking this or some other belief (even within Christianity...i.e.Calvinism & Arminianism, Continuationism & Cessationism, etc.)

                    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                    I don't think any of that requires a direct word from God. Categories of sin are often times so broad that they can be applied to almost anyone, especially when we factor in the fact that we are all sinners, almost everyone can use prayer, exhortation, and encouragement about sin A, B, C, or 'G'.

                    Well this might be where we disagree.
                    Yes, perhaps this is where we disagree. I fail to see how the Bible can give extremely specific revelation about a given situation (such as pray for X person about Y situation, or talk to G stranger).

                    In my own experience (take it for what it is) - I have gone from a person who mostly mocked people who 'heard from God' (primarily because I saw a lot of people who clearly did not, but were rather led astray by vain imaginations) - to one who has seen the incredible power of being led by the Spirit. The truth is, that the Holy Spirit can provide insight into situations that we really would have no idea otherwise...and that insight can have incredible results.


                    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                    The fact that many Godly brothers and sisters don't hear from God in this way is not a failure, but perhaps a gift that God has not granted to them.
                    I would never say that the someone who doesn't hear from God is a failure. I was rather stating a general principle that can be applied across many situations. And to be clear, we are all of one body - and we are not to despise others for the gifts they bring or don't bring to the body.

                    So the fact that many Godly brothers and sisters don't hear from God can really leave multiple possibilities as to why...for example:

                    1. God hasn't decided to 'grant them that gift'
                    2. God has decided to 'grant them that gift' but they don't walk in it (either willfully, or ignorantly)

                    There is no doubt that the Spirit is sovereign in how He gives the gifts, speaks, moves, convicts, etc. -- to that much we should all agree.


                    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                    Yet I fail to see in Scripture commands to listen, hear, and discern the voice of God in the manner you are advocating.
                    Yet I don't believe that this is the standard we hold to with regards to scripture. The Scripture commands many things that we don't do (e.g. head coverings, holy kisses) and doesn't talk about many things (abortion, stem cell research, drug use, etc.).

                    The reason is because the Bible is composed of many writings that were written to a specific people in a specific situation. And much of the New Testament was written as epistles to churches often with a corrective nature. IOW, the epistles were written to address the current situation - and therefore might not command a people to do something they were already doing (i.e. it assumes they do) - and it also doesn't tell them to stop things that they weren't doing.

                    With that in mind, I do find it telling that Acts does have examples (although not necessarily prescriptive) of people being led by the Spirit - and that certain epistles outright say this, or assume it (IMO).

                    When we consider that we must 'test the spirits', that people 'prophecy' ( I am a continuationist) and that from such the secrets of someone's heart can be disclosed, that people are led by God, and that the Holy Spirit teaches us - I think it is safe to see that the writings very well assumed that people heard from the Spirit.


                    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                    I think simple gospel proclamation and new birth wrought about by the Holy Spirit can accomplish this.
                    I think you are putting the cart before the horse, perhaps. It is sometimes the leading of the Holy Spirit (or prophetic utterance) that even makes this possible.


                    1 Corinthians 14:24-25
                    But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”



                    In other words, the Holy Spirit empowers us supernaturally to do the work of the church. That includes the proclamation of the gospel, exhortation, correction, etc. -- I think we should not be too quick to assume that the work of the church can be done effectively without the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

                    In a perfect world we may only need the rebirth -- and we would never need teaching, correction, etc. -- yet we live in a fallen world with fallen people. So God uses the gifts of the Holy Spirit through His church full of imperfect people to fulfill His perfect will.


                    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                    Can you define "genuinely led by the Holy Spirit"? And support it from Scripture as applied for all believers.
                    Not quite sure what you are looking for...are we to assume that everyone who claims to be led by the Spirit is actually led by the Spirit...or are we to discern and test the spirits?
                    Last edited by phat8594; 02-26-2015, 11:43 AM.

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                    • #40
                      Great response and discussion friend.

                      Proverbs 27:17.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                        Great response and discussion friend.

                        Proverbs 27:17.
                        Thanks. I was blessed as well.

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